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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Just curious,
for those who have fieros (Pontiacs last 2 seat sporty car). From what I've read even the v6 versions get around 25mpg mixed milage. That means that a car that's 20 years old gets as good economy as today's solstice. Granted the sol has more power. but still it seems like the auto manufacturers can't buy a clue. I would think they would have improved it some in 20 years to at least beyond 30mpg avg.
p.s. anyone see the ad's for the chevy equinox? They brag about getting 25 mpg hwy out of the thing. all the people I know are furious about fuel prices and scoff at 25 mpg (in other words if you drive a big truck or suv 25 mpg IS AWESOME but for everyone else in the world 25mpg is nothing much to be bragging about).
 

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Apples & oranges. You can't really compare what people are getting in Fieros today to what the EPA says the Solstice *should* get.

Doubling mpg from 12 to 24 saves a heck of a lot more than doubling it from 30 to 60.

Example: figure 10,000 miles/year driven. The soccer mom in her big SUV at 12mpg uses 833 gallons. She buys an Equinox, gets 24mpg, and uses 416 gallons, so she saved the other 416. OTOH, the Ford Focus driver who manages to squeeze out 30mpg uses 333 gallons before he buys his new Prius, then he uses 166.6. He only saved 166 gallons.

(Yeah, 30 is a bit high for a Focus, we get ~28 in ours, but most hybrid drivers are seeing way less than the EPA predicts, too.)
 

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My '86 Fiero GT V6 usually pulls 29 mpg and does even better on the highway.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
sol brotha,
see thats my point 29mpg is excellent for a 20 year old vehicle+ technology. Now its been 20 years. One would think that after all this time GM could do better that 20/28. lets say that economy was improved a measily 1% every year. well over 20 years we'd have a 35 mpg up from 29mpg. this would be better than the 28mpg we are stuck with on the solstice.
 

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davioh said:
sol brotha,
see thats my point 29mpg is excellent for a 20 year old vehicle+ technology. Now its been 20 years. One would think that after all this time GM could do better that 20/28. lets say that economy was improved a measily 1% every year. well over 20 years we'd have a 35 mpg up from 29mpg. this would be better than the 28mpg we are stuck with on the solstice.
You dont have to be stuck with 28mpg....Just dont buy a Solstice and you wont be stuck! :yesnod:
 

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Who cares, gas is cheap. I just filled up my Vette for $34.28. :lol:
 

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First of all, the EPA has changed how they come up with the posted mileage numbers (to make them more realistic :skep: ). What has had a much larger impact is the tailpipe emissions. Unfotunately, a 'cleaner' running car develops less hp for the same gas consumption :( . Finally, there is a theoretical limit to efficiency of the internal combustion engine - and while we're not there yet, it becomes exponentially more difficult to make improvements the closer you get.
 

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Pontiac offers a convertible sports car that has 30% more horsepower from a motor that is 15% smaller and STILL gets better fuel economy than an enclosed coupe (Fiero) that is about 100-pounds lighter and you are complaining?

I have 2 suggestions to improve your fuel economy. First, always leave the top up so your CD is better. Second, install a taller rear gear ratio which will make the car much slower off the line but will offer the higher fuel efficiency you require.

We have several people here for whom the Solstice is not appropriate because it is not powerful enough. I am not surprised to hear the Solstice is not appropriate for you because it is not fuel efficient enough. The Solstice is not all things to all people. Just a fabulous, gorgeous American sports car.

Now a question. If Pontiac could produce more horsepower for the Solstice than it's nearest competitor (Mazda MX5) and still get 35 MPG, don't you think they would have done it?
 

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Do you remember thinking throughout the period when the Fiero was produced that the sixties was the age of the Muscle Car and we would never see a time like that again? Yet now you can go out and buy a GTO or Vette with more HP than any of those legendary cars and it uses a THIRD of the gas. I've got a copy of a road test of a '72 Riviera that only got 9 MPG! Modern technology has allowed us to have the best of both worlds, high HP and high MPG. Because that's what the consumer has demanded.

The last decade has seen an undreamed of horse power war because of the relatively low price of gas. It's only been the last year that has seen such a rise in gas prices. But it takes a while for Detroit to change it's priorities to match the capricious nature of the market. Do you remember what happened to market share in the second half of the seventies?

Throughout the short time that the Solstice was being designed, gas was cheap and performance was the priority. In the last year that has changed and the car will probably change as well. It's not out of the question that when the FI version is offered in a year or so, an engine smaller than the 2.4L will be offered. Or a taller gear ratio rear end could be available as well.
 

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accurate compared to real world results, but they are comparable from vehicle to vehicle.

The Fiero V6 5speed Fiero was rated 17 city 27 highway, the automatic 18/24. (1988)

The Solstice of course is rated 20/28.

The V6 Fieros in 1988 weighed in around 2700 lbs, the Sol 2860.

The Fiero was down on power, 140 to 177.

My analyis. The Solstices 3 MPG better city, and 1 MPG better highway figure is fairly significant. It gets better mileage than the Fiero, generates more power, and hauls more weight.




Now, to rant:

Where is Yogi Berra, this is like Déjà vu all over again! :eek: Didn’t we just have a discussion turned rant thread on fuel mileage?

50% of the vehicles sold in this country are trucks getting horrendous mileage. The Solstice isn’t that bad.

Most performance cars sold in this country do not get all that hot of fuel mileage. The Lotus Elise only gets 23/27, and it weighs 1000 lbs less than the Solstice, and offers only 13 more HP. Its overall combined MPG is likely to be 1 or 2 higher than the Sol’s, but with so much less weight it should. This Toyota sourced Yamaha designed engine is considered to be a technical marvel and not a gas hog,. Why, Lotus wants a performance car, not an economy car.

The Honda S2000’s 4 cylinder engine is rated 20/25. Ok, it has a high horsepower peak which costs a lot of gas to run at, but it wouldn’t come close to that RPM peak during the EPA’s testing cycle. With a 6 speed manual, it should also really be loping along in the highway test. Still, it managed a worse rating than the Solstice. Now that isn’t a criticism, because again, the car is designed to be a performance car. Honda sells plenty of economy cars, this isn’t one of them and it is not meant to be one of them.

To really illustrate what happens to an engine when it is tuned for greater performance, lets take a look at the Mazda3 and Focus ST, both of which use the Mazda 2.3L PZEV motor and a 5 speed manual. In the Mazda3’s, this engine gets a very economical 25 MPG city, and 32 highway. However, the Focus ST is rated 22/31! Why? Ford is positioning the ST as the current SVT replacement, and really wants the car to be quick, so the engine, trans, and gearing have been tuned to maximize performance, where as the Mazda3 has been tuned for a compromise between performance and economy.

I know there are some other examples of sporty cars that get better mileage than the Solstice too, but really I do not think the Sol’s estimated mileage is out of line. As a sports car, fuel economy probably isn’t the biggest deciding factor, and compared to most of the V6 competition the Sol will still look good in the mileage department anyway.
 

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MAKsys said:
First of all, the EPA has changed how they come up with the posted mileage numbers (to make them more realistic :skep: ). What has had a much larger impact is the tailpipe emissions. Unfotunately, a 'cleaner' running car develops less hp for the same gas consumption :( . Finally, there is a theoretical limit to efficiency of the internal combustion engine - and while we're not there yet, it becomes exponentially more difficult to make improvements the closer you get.
You might have hit on something here MAKsys. These new numbers out for the Solstice might be the newer EPA Fuel Economy testing methods. A lot of these older Fuel Economy values might then be based off of testing methods not as strict as what they did on the Solstice. We might see other cars Fuel Economy values drop and the Solstice might end up looking better in the long run compared to the.
 

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As of May 17 of this year, any potential changes to the way MPG is tested and calculated was still pending legislation in the Senate. I am having trouble finding any newer, updated info.

However, I doubt the Solstice would have been tested under the proposed methods, since there would be no way of knowing whether they would become law or not.

The new law did indicate that it would drop fuel mileage estimates by about 30%. So if the Sol had been tested under the new measures, it would be rated around 28 city, 40 highway under the current (old) system, and both of those are way too high to be realistic.

http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/italladdsup.nsf/0/52dfc35b0eaa0c358525700400718b21?OpenDocument

Here is a pdf on the current EPA procedures.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/factshts/fefact01.pdf

The current procedures do incorporate a correction factor which was added for 1985. Here is another article on the EPA mileage, and whether it needs changing:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/02/pf/autos/epa/
 

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Fformula88 said:
The new law did indicate that it would drop fuel mileage estimates by about 30%. So if the Sol had been tested under the new measures, it would be rated around 28 city, 40 highway under the current (old) system, and both of those are way too high to be realistic.
A 30% drop would actually make it and 26 city and 36.4 highway. But I agree those numbers still sound kinda high if 30% is the real drop.

Reading over the links you had and the EPA site though they specificly say;
by up to 30 percent
...
those tests reduced fuel efficiency by between 12 and 29 percent
Which does not necisarily mean that you'll get a maximum of 30% decrease, but could at most be 30% decrease. Who knows, GM's a huge company so they might have access to what the final testing might be and they're trying to be pro-active about it. Just like they were with the new HP testing procedures that the used to measure the LS7 engine. At the lowest case of 12% that could mean 22.4/31.3 MPG in the old system, or the highest 30% case the 26/36 MPG I mentioned above.

But like you pointed out the law might not be final, and these current values might still be the old system.
 

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mcronec5 said:
Who cares, gas is cheap. I just filled up my Vette for $34.28. :lol:
Got you beat! I just filled my GMC for $51.25! Can't wait for the Solstice to get here with its dinky gas tank. By the way, my1990 Vette used to pull close to 30 on the highway and easilly got in the mid to upper 20s average.
 

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davioh said:
Just curious,
for those who have fieros (Pontiacs last 2 seat sporty car). From what I've read even the v6 versions get around 25mpg mixed milage. That means that a car that's 20 years old gets as good economy as today's solstice. Granted the sol has more power. but still it seems like the auto manufacturers can't buy a clue. I would think they would have improved it some in 20 years to at least beyond 30mpg avg.
p.s. anyone see the ad's for the chevy equinox? They brag about getting 25 mpg hwy out of the thing. all the people I know are furious about fuel prices and scoff at 25 mpg (in other words if you drive a big truck or suv 25 mpg IS AWESOME but for everyone else in the world 25mpg is nothing much to be bragging about).
Check this out.... in 1984 I bought a brand new honda civic DX 1500 4 cyl engine. That car got 60 miles to the gallon and that is no lie. I drove that car from Long Island, NY to Jacksonville, NC (approx. 575 Miles) on a single tank gas (11 Gallons) and still had a little gas left over. I think honda had to back off because they were ahead of their time.
 
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