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Been there, done that. Hold your foot down for about 20 minutes. Then walk home LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Its a lot more exciting driving an M48 at 35 while people are shooting live rounds at you.
 

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Yeah, it's a different world with those cars. My Model 3 has made my "fun" cars slow. The instant torque is thrilling. Don't get me wrong, I am all about high hp, big and loud, headers and exhausts, and all that, but the Tesla has totally won me over. I stepped inside the car the other morning to find a software update had been installed that took the 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.9. For free. In my garage. While I slept. They're changing the industry. If something is wrong with the car, they can usually fix it over the phone or via the app -- if not, they come out to my house or office and fix it there. I've never charged anywhere but that the house and my utility has special rates for EV owners between midnight and 6 am, so that's when the car charges. They're fantastic cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Been there, done that. Hold your foot down for about 20 minutes. Then walk home LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Its a lot more exciting driving an M48 at 35 while people are shooting live rounds at you.
Haha, I can't say that I've ever had the opportunity to experience that one!! Although the M48 is cool, the M60 "does it" for me, I just love it's rear exhaust plates!!
 

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Yeah, it's a different world with those cars. My Model 3 has made my "fun" cars slow. The instant torque is thrilling. Don't get me wrong, I am all about high hp, big and loud, headers and exhausts, and all that, but the Tesla has totally won me over. I stepped inside the car the other morning to find a software update had been installed that took the 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.9. For free. In my garage. While I slept. They're changing the industry. If something is wrong with the car, they can usually fix it over the phone or via the app -- if not, they come out to my house or office and fix it there. I've never charged anywhere but that the house and my utility has special rates for EV owners between midnight and 6 am, so that's when the car charges. They're fantastic cars.
2.9 second 0-60! I'm Blown. Away.
 

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Went to Savannah on holiday last year and noticed what appeared to be parking meters in various places around the historic district. They were in fact charging stations! Henry ford was right when he said that if he mass produced the cars, the gas stations would follow quickly. Electric cars will be no different.
 

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1) current demand for electric vehicles is at about 2% of sales
2) the current state of the art for battery storage limits the amount of total energy that can be packaged on a viable electric vehicle means they are constrained to carrying small weights for about 300 miles or large weights for about 50 miles. Its physics.
3) there are multiple manufacturers spending billions to bring out products that are not in demand
4) If electric vehicles eventually represent a significant proportion of working vehicles, the demand on the electrical grid will cause the price of ownership to go up and no one knows what the upper limit is. But the power grid is in poor condition and is not ready to accept a large increase in loading. In California much of the grid is 85 years old with a design life of 80 years which is why it fails when the wind blows. And yet it still burns up significant parts of the state.
5) Wind power is unreliable and highly affected by . .. the weather. Having wind power does NOT relieve the grid from the necessity to have sufficient production capacity to serve the largest design load. When the wind blows, they can dial back some production locally but they have to have the ability to provide full worst case power when the wind is not blowing.
6) solar power is a joke. It costs too much and if you do a little research you will see electric vehicle owners in California lined up for half a mile to get a charge because they just found out that their home solar system feeds the GRID and not their house. When the grid goes down, they go dark. Unless they pay a boat load for storage AND the switch gear needed to isolate their home power system from the grid.
7) storing energy in a moving vehicle is a serious safety challenge. Basically its a bomb operated at high speeds that in the event the stored energy is released the results can be catastrophic. See the Ford Pinto. Providing energy via liquid fuel is very mature technology. The storage, delivery, and on vehicle management systems are very mature and proven. The safety systems including response to crashes is also very mature. The same cannot be said for electrical energy storage. Gasoline and diesel will burn but at the surface and in a way that can be controlled and remedied in emergencies. Electrical battery storage will instead when shorted attempt to provide infinite current instantaneously. If you want to see how it works, just short across a 220 outlet and watch the metal vaporize. In an electric vehicle you are sitting on thousands of laptop batteries, each of which would set your butt on fire given half a chance. :)

Acceleration is power to weight. Internal combustion engines can be designed to produce massive amounts of power. Or you can stuff a moderate motor into a light weight car and get to similar performance to an electric vehicle. At the edges see a full fuel dragster that will I garuntee you wil out accelerate any Tesla ever built.

If you take the same dollars you spend for a Tesla you can find many performance cars that burn plain old gasoline that will equal or better that performance.

I have consumed a lot of information about Tesla and would not own one if you gave it to me. They are a car designed by software engineers. Its all about what the code does and the hardware is just there to sell the software. Watch some of the videos about the abysmal build quality of Tesla. They are not put together well at all. They are typically not sealed and when they are pulled apart they are full of crap. Dirt, water, gum wrappers, you name it. I watched a master technician who works on them for a living say he likes them but would NEVER own one because of the poor build quality.

Self driving cars are at least a decade away. When Tesla says "its on the way" he is basically lying to you. Look at the results of the latest software update. Now the car translates insufficient information and sensor inputs as random traffic cones and / or garbage cans. While it does not see actual pedestrians. The reason that Tesla does not have autonomous driving now is because it would be killing even more people.

I am really looking forward to all these electric vehicles to hit the marketplace. First, the vast majority of them will fail because people don't want them. And the market that does want them will have so many great choices that no manufacturer will have enough unit sales to pay for the tooling. Many will go out of business. Seen a Cheby Volt lately?

First gen Nissan Leaf batteries were insufficiently cooled. They are failing due to heat related issues. They are replacing them in Japan for $4000 and charging $10000 in Australia. They basically made a throw away, single use car with a very limited life. How much confidence do you have that the soon to hit the market electric vehicles will be any better designed? Its going to be highly competitive and the potential market for the next decade is relatively tiny. A lot of cost cutting is going on to get to a viable cost/benefit.

While I am on the subject of Tesla. I found this article interesting.

Yes, Tesla is not a car company. Its a money machine selling pretty good software in a pretty poor platform, kind of like Microsoft selling a good operating system that loads onto cheap computers. And charging a butt load for it, or in the case of Tesla, selling a bunch of cars in a quarter "raises" the "value" of the company which he then sells to raise more money to make more cars to raise the perceived value which he then sells . . ..

The future is going to be very interesting. When you can go to your Ford dealer and buy a very nice Mustang SUV full electric for half the price of a Tesla what happens to Elon?

And his Cybertruck is a joke. Hook up a gooseneck or fifth wheel trailer to it and see how far you get LOL. As long as you don't turn you are in good shape for about 50 miles. 300 miles of unladen range turns into about 50 miles at full load. Hope you don't have far to go .
 

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You make some good points, but I think you are missing a few things.

The electric grid is an issue because of its age, but not because of loading, since the load problem is peak loading, generally during the day. Charging cars at night actually helps to even demand on the system, allowing un-used capacity to be utilized. Increasing off-peak demand will generate additional income for the utilities with no capital increase, giving them the means, and more incentive, to fix the infrastructure. Will they? I have no idea, but it makes good business sense for them to do so.

Range is mainly a mental problem for most people, most of the time. 75% of cars on the road travel fewer than 75 miles per day. Electric cars aren't for everyone, but neither are massive pickup trucks. I know a number of people who already rent a car for long trips, mainly to save wear and tear on their daily drivers, but doing it for better range would be an option for many also.

The exploding Pintos were gasoline powered, so i don't get your point on that one.
 

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Yeah, it's a different world with those cars. My Model 3 has made my "fun" cars slow. The instant torque is thrilling. Don't get me wrong, I am all about high hp, big and loud, headers and exhausts, and all that, but the Tesla has totally won me over. I stepped inside the car the other morning to find a software update had been installed that took the 0-60 from 3.1 to 2.9. For free. In my garage. While I slept. They're changing the industry. If something is wrong with the car, they can usually fix it over the phone or via the app -- if not, they come out to my house or office and fix it there. I've never charged anywhere but that the house and my utility has special rates for EV owners between midnight and 6 am, so that's when the car charges. They're fantastic cars.
Watch the Fast Lane Car video on trying to get their Tesla model 3 repaired. After MONTHS of waiting they sold the car. Fun to drive, not fun to own if you are a normal consumer.

Watch their video on hauling a trailer behind the Tesla SUV. They got 50 miles and had to call in a Ram to pick up the trailer as they ran out of juice.

The industry is changing but its not due to Tesla. I work with SW guys all day for the past 30 years. That is Tesla. They give a crap about you. They don't care if you have a good owner experience or not. They work hard to sell you features and update over the air but everyone is doing that now. Tesla did it early because they are SW guys. The CAR builders are doing it now because the technology is mature enough and because owners are more accepting. There are still a lot of security issues associated with over the air updates. Personally I prefer to do it the old fashioned way. That way I KNOW what crap they are putting on my vehicle - and can choose to NOT install a garbage can detector - and I know the source of the code being loaded on a human safety device.

As an experiment, try to locate an authorized repair center and find out what the wait time is to get any work done. Then find out how they get their parts. Tesla basically does not stock parts. If you need a light or a fender, they have to contact the factory and ask for one. Then they have to wait till it gets made. Then they take the car apart and find more damage and they have to order more parts. Then they have to wait for them to be made. And the guy at the factor doesn't care if you EVER get your part. And you cant talk with them cause its all email. Then if like the TFL car the repair techs break a window you are another few weeks getting that part from someone who doesn't care if you EVER get your part.

Sure the SW support is fast but you don't WANT it fast. If they can load a new game to play while you are sitting in your car waiting for the fast charger to give you a few more miles, someone else can load code that locks the doors and doesn't let you out. Which is a different issue as I know of at least one driver who DIED because first responders could not get the door handles to pop out so they could get him out before the car BURNED UP.

I think its wonderful that you enjoy your Tesla. Good for you. Seriously.

But also know that you have no clue what that software really does. You have no clue what the build quality of your car is as you drive it around on public roads.

Have you read the current conversation about the ethics of autonomous control software? There is a growing realization that your car control software should probably include rules that KILL YOU rather than let you hurt others.

A car is traveling at 75 mph
A child and her mother run onto the road in front of the car.
The autonomous software knows that there is one person in the car, and two persons at risk
The autonomous software drives the car into a bridge abutment to kill only one person vice two persons. You are dead.
Hail autonomy.

In an autonomous vehicle, you don't make the decisions anymore. The software makes the decisions for you. Even if you are in "manual" mode, the autonomous code IS running in the background and has the ability to take command away from you. Any time it decides that is the lesser of two evils.

I have experienced the pain of even the very early autonomy in my Toyota. Adaptive cruise control is in my opinion DANGEROUS. And you cant turn it off! While traveling on the freeway at the speed limit -75 MPH- and a forced 4 car lengths behind the car in front, an idiot is on your rear bumper wanting you to go faster. Another idiot comes up and cuts in front of you, triggering the automatic braking and the idiot behind you hits you in the ass. Now your wife refuses to drive any Toyota because in normal traffic it can decide to make an emergency braking maneuver any time and NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL. So I just don't use the cruise control in any traffic or only on a two lane road.
 

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Electric cars are here (some countries they are the best selling cars) and they will stay. Car companies have no choice because governments all over the place made new law restricting the overall average emissions of a manufacturers sales. Since the average is too high with just ICE the only solution is to sell electric cars as well. So in many countries in order to sell ICE cars they need to sell electric cars.

Bob Lutz had some interesting similar comments on this a few months ago in Autoline After Hours.
 

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You make some good points, but I think you are missing a few things.

The electric grid is an issue because of its age, but not because of loading, since the load problem is peak loading, generally during the day. Charging cars at night actually helps to even demand on the system, allowing un-used capacity to be utilized. Increasing off-peak demand will generate additional income for the utilities with no capital increase, giving them the means, and more incentive, to fix the infrastructure. Will they? I have no idea, but it makes good business sense for them to do so.

Range is mainly a mental problem for most people, most of the time. 75% of cars on the road travel fewer than 75 miles per day. Electric cars aren't for everyone, but neither are massive pickup trucks. I know a number of people who already rent a car for long trips, mainly to save wear and tear on their daily drivers, but doing it for better range would be an option for many also.

The exploding Pintos were gasoline powered, so i don't get your point on that one.
You make some good points, but I think you are missing a few things.

The electric grid is an issue because of its age, but not because of loading, since the load problem is peak loading, generally during the day. Charging cars at night actually helps to even demand on the system, allowing un-used capacity to be utilized. Increasing off-peak demand will generate additional income for the utilities with no capital increase, giving them the means, and more incentive, to fix the infrastructure. Will they? I have no idea, but it makes good business sense for them to do so.

Range is mainly a mental problem for most people, most of the time. 75% of cars on the road travel fewer than 75 miles per day. Electric cars aren't for everyone, but neither are massive pickup trucks. I know a number of people who already rent a car for long trips, mainly to save wear and tear on their daily drivers, but doing it for better range would be an option for many also.

The exploding Pintos were gasoline powered, so i don't get your point on that one.
The day night loading is good for now but - the average utilization will go up and as the number of people charging goes up, the number of them charging in the daytime will also go up. There are issues due to age but also because the push to eliminate coal as a source of electricity generation held up construction on a lot of power plants so its also a generation issue. Or total capacity.

LOL while I am sympathetic to your statement about 75 miles a day, unless you buy a commuter vehicle and a play vehicle, your commuter vehicle must also meet your needs for a non commuter vehicle. Generally that includes a trip to grandma's house of several hundred or even thousands of miles. There will clearly be consumers who buy low range, inexpensive cars and be fully satisfied, the majority of people want the ability to travel long distances at will.

The Ford F-150 has been the largest selling or second largest selling vehicle for several years. A lot of people want trucks and a lot of people use them as their only vehicle. I have two trucks for example. In my neighborhood there is a full sized truck in front of 90% of the houses filling up the street. :-( Also its no mistake that many long term cars are going out of production because people are choosing cross overs and SUVs. Big is in for a lot of the market. This is also partially due to the improvements in mass transit in many larger cities that make dependence on a personal car much less necessary. I am all for mass transit for everyone else. :)

The reference to the Pinto was too arcane. Sorry. The Pinto blew up due to poor design decisions. The criteria and what is now an "acceptable" level of protection for liquid fuel is now much improved because they blew up a lot of Pintos. We are in a similar early adopter state with electric vehicles where people get killed by door handles and fire departments are using portable swimming pools to deal with electric vehicle fires. In ten years after most of the bad design decisions are identified (by experiencing them on the road) and addressed with better solutions, then the electric vehicle will have matured to the extent where they will be both viable and safe.
 

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Don't completely entwine electric vehicles with autonomous vehicles. They are not the same and it is quite easy to have one without the other.
 

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I wonder sometimes how many stables and buggy whip manufacturers screamed bloody murder about the new and very dangerous horseless carriages taking to the road. Electric vehicles are here to stay.

The autonomous driving features are another subject altogether. I really believe they are here to stay also. I don't know the percentages, but I would hazard a guess that most accidents are caused by defective drivers, not defective cars. Autonomy, as it improves, will improve those numbers IMHO.
 

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I hope and expect my next daily driver is all electric, but it certainly won't be a Tesla.

On top of the issues Rob points out, I positively can not stand the "interior" of the M3. My 1994 Dodge Neon was more inviting.
 

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To me as a retire IT engineer is both the software and the batteries. By the way the new C8 Corvette does 0-to 60 in 2.8 seconds and is only a 495BHP. I like Rob will wait a few more years or will go for a Hybrid at some point.
 

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Great discussion! I was a tried and true V8 or big blower or turbo guy (or V8 with a big blower, like the Sol Coupe or TA) and the Tesla has just won me over by how it drives, the reliabiltiy, ease of service (what service?) and unequaled safety. For my purposes, it has never charged anywhere but in the garage overnight and has never been close to stranding me without a charge. (I do have solar panels on my house and office BTW, another discussion -- but as an example, the office system will pay for itself in 5 years and save 70 percent on my bill for 20+ more. Also, the newer inverters will run when the grid is down without batteries during the daytime). As we all know, the batteries are the last thing holding these cars back, and that tech will surely catch up. And it is possible to have a nasty LI fire in a severe EV crash, and every time it does, it is national news -- I don't recall the last one. (Imagine of every crash and fire in an IC car lead the nightly news...). Overall, the safety ratings for Teslas are off the charts. As for autonomous driving, every company is working on systems -- none are ready. I've let my Tesla pilot itself for a few hundred yards for craps and giggles with my sweating hands 1/4 inch off the wheel at the ready, but it is not my thing. However, it will be a thing and it will undeniably be light years safer than the average driver out there. I actually have a Model Y on order to replace the smallish 3. I looked at the Mach E and it's pretty cool, but the pricing is very similar to the Tesla and I'm not ready to be a guinea pig for Ford's first crack at this (and I'm pretty sure they haven't built their first supercharger station yet). I root for Musk and Tesla - an American company building American cars in America that are more innovative than anything out there. And it's true, a top fuel dragster will beat an AWD Performance Model 3 to 60, but very few other cars out there will... Having 100 percent of 471 lb-ft of torque available at 0 rpm never gets old... Keep up the great discussion!
 

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Regarding autonomous cars, the CEO of Volkswagen's autonomous vehicle subsidiary is saying that Level 4 (fully autonomous parking, highway cruising, etc) may be as far as we ever get.
 

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Especially for older people autonomous cars would be great.

At the moment those cars are way to dumb though, even on the highways. They don't even pull over when a police officer standing on the shoulder gives a stop sign :)
 

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One of my concerns is the current state of batteries. One of the sales points is how green these cars are. The life span of the batteries hasn't been discussed as they do have a limited life span. Electric will work if they fix this but until then I'll wait.
 
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