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I'd say there are some clueless folks posting. The Sol is getting about the same mileage as a Miata or a Honda S2000.

Roadsters are not exactly fuel-efficient cars...
 

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Its the gearing and the weight. I persoanly am happy that it has quick gearing and can pull .9 Gs on the skid pad.
If someone is looking for gas mileage they should go track down one of those sweet convertible Geo Metros.
 

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solsticeman said:
I'd say there are some clueless folks posting. The Sol is getting about the same mileage as a Miata or a Honda S2000.

Roadsters are not exactly fuel-efficient cars...
Yeah and the S2000 isn't even the Solstice's main competitor.
 

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I think our beef should be more with 1LeZ28 over there then the actual 2.4L VVT engine's fuel economy. Geez that guy has a hard on for ECOTEC/Solstice bashing. :willy:

However though some of them do have a point. I'm was kinda amased how low the 2.4L VVT engine's fuel economy is compared to the rest of the ECOTEC line-up. Especially needing to use Premium fuel to get the highest levels of performance from it.
  • 2.4L VVT 177HP & 166 lbs-ft [10.6:1 CR - 91 Octane Recommended]
    • Solstice (2,860 lbs.) 20/28
  • 2.2L ECOTEC 140HP & 150 lbs-ft [10:1 CR - 87 Octane]
    • Cavalier & Sunfire (2,749 lbs.) 26/36
    • Cobalt Sedan (3,216 lbs.) 24/32
    • Cobalt Coupe (2,991 lbs.) 25/34
    • ION Coupe & Sedan (2,769 lbs.) 26/35
  • 2.0L Supercharged 205HP & 200 lbs-ft [9.5:1 CR - 91 Octane Recommended]
    • Cobalt SS (2,991 lbs.) 23/29
  • 2.4L TwinCam 150HP & 155 lbs-ft [9.7:1 CR - 87 Octane]
    • Cavalier & Sunfire (2,749 lbs.) 22/32
  • 2.2L TwinCam 115HP & 135 lbs-ft [9:1 CR - 87 Octane]
    • Cavalier & Sunfire (2,606 lbs.) 22/32
  • 2.0L Mazda 170HP & 140 lbs-ft [10.8:1 CR - 91 Octane OR GREATER Required]
    • 2006 MX-5 (~2500) 23/28
  • 2.2L Honda VTEC 240HP & 162 lbs-ft [11.1:1 CR - 91 Octane OR GREATER Required]
    • S2000 (2,835 lbs.) 20/25
You look at these and expect more out of it. At first that is. Especially if you're thinking about Sedans and Coupes, and other cheap i4 econo-boxes.

However...

Compared to the 2.2L ECOTEC the 2.4L VVT gains 21% more power, but compared to the lowest Fuel Economy 2.2L [Cobalt Sedan] it only gets 17%/13% lower fuel economy. HA, look at that right there, we're getting more power gain then fuel economy loss, more then likely thanks to the VVT. However comparing it to the lighter/better fuel economy 2.2L [Cavalier] we see a 23%/22% lower fuel economy. Ouch, little bit more fuel consumption then power gain.

The main couple of things people have to remember here are;
  1. The Solstice is a Roadster with a horrible CD compared to a Sedan/Coupe
  2. The Solstice engine is tuned for performance
  3. The Solstice transmission is geared for performance
These three things are going to make this engine drink much more fuel then it's econo-box breatherin. (The 2.0L Supercharged engine is an oddball though.) If you compare it to the other Roadsters I have listed it looks on par with the rumored MX-5 MPG [and it's ~300 lbs LIGHTER too] values and beats the S2000.

Another major thing to remember is this engine is designed for maximum low end Torque compared to the MX-5/S2000. You're not going to get that low down *umph* without taking a bigger drink of fuel, which is more then likely why the city MPG is worse then the 2.0L Supercharged even.

The major problem with the 2.4L VVT engine is it's being first seen by everyone in the most performance tuned varient that's going to exist, in a car with the worst CD possible too of all the lineup. I'm really betting once this engine is in the Cobalt SS where it'll get friendlier gearing, much better CD, and we know already is tuned for less performance we'll see some sort of MPG gain on both ends. If it had come out in the Cobalt SS when it was supposed to last year I don't think this would be the issue it's become now, because people could have seen it in a better light.
 

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Excellent post, very informative brentil!
 

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1LeZ28 bashes anything that is not his beloved LS1 Z28. He gets really mad when you point out that if his Z28 was so great, why don't they make them anymore. My guess is that he sees the Solstice as potential competition or a possible next car, but his ego won't let him deal with it in a rational way.

What's funny is that if GM could somehow get the Solstice to have 22/30 MPG their would be almost no complaints. It just looks and sounds better.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Stang,
setting aside the poster's biases, IMHO the milage criticism is very valid. If gas was still $1 a gallon now and the forseeable future, it wouldn't be. But thats not reality. here are some further ironies about the milage to ponder:
-Gas avg. $2 a gallon and it is generally expected by the experts to go up from there over the course of time.
-hybrid and diesel tech is available, but gm isn't letting us have it (either in the USA, or in very many model like solstices).
-direct injection tech is available even for gas vehicles, yet it is also being held back from us for some reason.
-the ls1 that he keeps speaking of IS a powerful v8 with almost 2X the horsepower, yet it doesn't weigh much more and actually DOES get better fuel econ. (even when the cars they are in weighs much more).
-as far as I know, the other prior pontiac sports car from 15+ years ago (fiero) gets around the same mpg's. Perhaps some fiero owners on here can verify this.
-auto sales are down except for hybrids which are up 40%+. Now the bottom line on this to me is fuel economy. Give people a reason to buy and they will. Give them the same old tech + fuel economy and watch them collectively shrug their shoulders.

the bottom line is it doesn't seem like most of the automakers are doing enough for fuel economy. Maybe they finally will when their pocketbooks get hit hard enough (thru the tune of sales drops).
 

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no, all that needs to happen is for the government to pass a law like the CAFE laws of the 70s. if the major companies had to make cars that get 40mpg, then we would get great engines getting 40mpg and still making the same hp. instead of the US shipping billions of dollars per year to the middle east for oil, we can make the manufacturers produce more economical cars; therefore, decreasing our need for oil. we can give the money we saved through the decrease in demand to the manufacturers to help them reach the new goals. as long as the manufacturers only have to meet very low gas standards, they will do just that- simply meet them, not do any better.

http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/qsecure.asp
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Godspeed,
Amen to that sentiment. Now the automakers had airbag tech way back in the 70's. They argued it would cost thousands of dollars more per car. When they mandated it in the 90's the actual cost was a few hundred dollars more per car (amazing when millions of parts get mass produced, costs go way down. for added safety a few hundred more upfront sounds worth it to me).
Now onto fuel economy. In terms of 'regular tech' like direct injection for gas engines; what if it was $500 more per car? Well The used car market would easily differentiate the models. Those buying used May easily pay $500 more for the more efficient version. So net cost to the new car buyer= 0 (moreover it would even pay for itself in lower operation costs). How about hybrids? if it was mandated that all cars must be offered with a hybrid engine (Like toyota is doing anyways) + the $4000 tax break would be offered several things would happen.
#1. the manufacturers would sell 20X more hybrids than they are now, thus reducing the costs to all due to mass productions.
#2. it would eventually reduce fuel demand which would reduce or stabilize fuel costs for us all.
#3. Even if the optional cost was say $6000 (even after mass production) the net cost to the buyer would be $2000 (after tax break). The consumer would save $ in operation costs + have a much higher resale value. As long as the mfg's all had decent warranties on their hybrid systems, the resale values would be assured. The end result WOULD BE cost effective for the consumers, despite the conservative naysayers.

I hope it happens.
p.s. one area would need to be improved. I read the toyota prius is like 40% more parts than a chevy malibu. The manufacturers would need to come out with more simplified versions.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
from the NRDC website "Still other energy-saving technologies are available now. Automakers have all the tools they need to boost the average gas-mileage of new passenger vehicles to 40 mpg. And by increasing their production of gas-electric hybrid vehicles, they could raise the overall fuel efficiency for new vehicles to 55 mpg by 2020. But so far, Congress has failed to pass laws requiring higher gas-mileage standards, giving Detroit little incentive to make the investment needed to retool their factories."
so it sounds like if the companies refuse to do it we as consumers need to refuse to buy until they do. Even if 25% of us do this, it hurts their bottom line. If we as consumers tell dealers "40 mpg or forget it" that message will eventually filter back to the mfg.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
stang,
what stupid mandated safety equip weighs hundreds of pounds? AFAIK, there are a few air bags + side impact beams. Besides, even if it could be done, do you want to take your chances? I wouldn't. Lets put it this way, life is very uncertain. I went for going almost 20 years without getting hit then I got rear ended TWICE within one month (once by a drunk, once by an immigrant). In these instances the airbags didn't help but I'm still glad I have them. Finally I met a guy who got his mazda 3 t boned by a car going 45 mph. Due to his side airbags, he walked away without a scratch. Lets analyze his case, $400 upfront = walk away unharmed vs. save $400 and then end up in hospital at costs of probably $10,000. Which would you choose?
 

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40 MPG vehicles won't do us any good unless WE and a large majority commit to buy and drive them. Notice as you are driving along the freeway to work tomorrow, how many 7+ passenger vehicles are on the road with you...many with a "NO WAR IN IRAQ" sticker on them, and only one person in them...We are just going to have to make committments if we want to solve problems!!
 

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davioh,
I was being a smartass. :D I know it's not just safety equipment, but sound insulation and other luxury stuff that has really porked up the modern car (not that I'm complaining). That was just my quick way to increase MPG... and be a smartass.

I do wish cars weighed less. I'd rather get hit with a 2,000 pound car than a 4,000 pound car any day.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
stang,
2000 pound sports car yes! a 2000 pound family sedan or minivan ...an emphatic no! The one thing I've noticed in epa estimates is that the weight doesn't seem to matter much. a gto is a lot heavier than a corvette yet they are both rated with the same epa.
also regarding the 7 passanger vehicles with one person in them. or big suv's with one person in them. It must all be about their status and not caring about things like depreciation or economy. Im glad someone is doing well off but Me Im not so my #1 criteria is economy. As a matter of fact if I do get another vehicle, it will probably be a used honda insight long before a solstice.
 

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All those opposed to high gas prices, raise your right foot! I hear people complaining about mileage & gas prices, but as a nation we're still driving 15mph over the limit.

Wife & I spent 8 nights in Paris last September. (It was a 25th anniversary trip, not a regular thing for us.) We saw practically no SUVs. We took a trip out into the countryside for a day and even pickups were rare. Gasoline was very expensive. (Hopefully some of our European members will reply with their perspectives on this.)

CAFE regulations are still in effect, but every time Congress tries to pass an increase, it gets gutted or killed. If you really want to increase mileage, what this country needs is a $5 tax/gallon of gasoline. Phase it in over 10 years to give people a chance to adjust. Maybe give a break to the lower-income folks who would be hit disproportionately to make up for it, somewhat. Spend the money on nuclear fusion research. That way we'll be ready once the oil runs out. Either that, or stock up on ammo.

Sorry for the rant, this thread hit a nerve.

Oh, and that 1leZ28 guy is a crackpot.
 

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WaitingForBoost said:
All those opposed to high gas prices, raise your right foot! I hear people complaining about mileage & gas prices, but as a nation we're still driving 15mph over the limit.

Wife & I spent 8 nights in Paris last September. (It was a 25th anniversary trip, not a regular thing for us.) We saw practically no SUVs. We took a trip out into the countryside for a day and even pickups were rare. Gasoline was very expensive. (Hopefully some of our European members will reply with their perspectives on this.)

CAFE regulations are still in effect, but every time Congress tries to pass an increase, it gets gutted or killed. If you really want to increase mileage, what this country needs is a $5 tax/gallon of gasoline. Phase it in over 10 years to give people a chance to adjust. Maybe give a break to the lower-income folks who would be hit disproportionately to make up for it, somewhat. Spend the money on nuclear fusion research. That way we'll be ready once the oil runs out. Either that, or stock up on ammo.

Sorry for the rant, this thread hit a nerve...
Man WaitingForBoost, can appreciate how this thread hit a nerve, but did you think through what you said!!?? First, the speed limit has little to do with gas mileage. Case in point, my Civic generally gives me 38-42MPG overall, I get the high end at 45-50 mph no traffic lights, low end in heavy stop and go traffic or cruising 80 mph on the freeway. The 7+ passenger vehicles NEVER gets gas mileage near that, unless they are coasting downhill with the engine off... :lol: How do they get back up the hill you ask?? They buy a Civic, or such other high mileage vehicle when they get to the bottom!! :lol:

As for other vehicles on the road, I was referring specifically to the U.S., NOT Europe...

And as for raising taxes (on anything much less gas)...if congress were to do so, it would be political and economic suicide...the present economy is barely chugging along as it is. Oh and fundamentally, NEVER :nono: ask government to take more of your money...they just might do it!! :yesnod: And if you ever paid any attention to history... you will realize, IT"S A BAD THING!!
 
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