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The EPA can pressure anyone it wants. it has almost no enforcement power.
I'll lock this quote in my time capsule... in three years we will see just what the EPA is capable of. ;)
 

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I'll lock this quote in my time capsule... in three years we will see just what the EPA is capable of. ;)
It would make me very happy if the EPA would grow a pair in the next three years. It ain't gonna happen as long as half of Congress is composed of lunatics.
 

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California is the only state in the US that has the ability to make their own emissions laws so long as the laws are stricter then the feds. Other states can adopt the California laws but they are are not capable of making their own. This is in reference to emissions output.

in the 1970's California had a smog problem. it was a very bad problem this is how vehicle catalysts came about. Smog is caused by NOx (Nitrogens) and CO (Carbon Monoxide) so in order to solve the smog issue they had to reduce those emissions. what a catalyst does is it catalyses those emissions and the definition of catalyses is "cause (an action or process) to begin. " well what process would that be? It's the conversion of those emissions into CO2 which is the #1 cause of global warming. What California is doing is they are turning a local problem into a global one. C.A.R.B. compliant catalysts cause an ICE vehicle to produce more carbon dioxide then EPA compliant ones do. and every other ding dong state is jumping on the band wagon and adopting the one thing that makes global warming worse. Why is this being done?? Money plain and simple, It has nothing to do with the environment because if it did then C.A.R.B. compliant catalysts would be banned in all states and there would be a massive push to provide more public transportation that is clean and uses renewable sources of energy to power it. California only cares about their environment and keeping the smog reduced , They do not care that they are creating a global problem in the process so long as there isn't a cloudy haze over their cities.

I have mountains of proof of the emissions testing programs being manipulated in Colorado and I am 100% sure the same thing is being done in other states as well. Vehicles are failing emissions tests when they shouldn't be. This is being done because in most states it is a 3rd party company that does the emissions testing and if the number of cars failing is to low the program will be terminated and the company will be out of business. It's in their best interest to keep the number of failures high enough so the program does not get terminated.
 

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Global warming... emission laws... fake test results!?! Is this a bad time to tell you guys that I LOVE my Sprint Booster!?!
 

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I have mountains of proof of the emissions testing programs being manipulated in Colorado and I am 100% sure the same thing is being done in other states as well. Vehicles are failing emissions tests when they shouldn't be. This is being done because in most states it is a 3rd party company that does the emissions testing and if the number of cars failing is to low the program will be terminated and the company will be out of business. It's in their best interest to keep the number of failures high enough so the program does not get terminated.
I used to consult for the EPA and DOE, I specialize in green infrastructure & buildings and not automotive regulations, but I have to say this statement is true. The reality is far worse...it's all a money making ploy. You think they really give a sh*t about the environment? Nah, it's about making money. There were so many things I disagreed on when it came to creating the next iteration of energy code. The committee consists of mostly business owners that are trying to push their products under the guise of "the environment". Total joke, that's why construction costs have risen so much. They want buildings to be energy efficient but keep making requirements to put inefficient crap into buildings.

Bottom line, the more failures during a smog test, the more money to be made.
 

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Look at how the smog test reports. In grams per mile. If you drive a vehicle in 5th gear with the RPM's at 2000 and the speed is say at 60mph for 1 mile you get x grams. Now drive the vehicle the same mile at the same speed and put it down into 3rd gear for the drive. Say the RPMs are at 4000 because it is in 3rd gear. still driving at 60 mph. But get this. a cylinder will fire once every 2 complete revolutions of the engine. so a 2000 RPMs each cylinder will fire 1000 times. for a 4 cylinder that's a total of 4000 detonations. I used 60 mph on purpose for the example because it would take exactly 1 minute to travel the mile and the engine speed is in minutes. so for the 1 mile taking 1 minute to drive it there is a total of 4000 detonations. Now bump the RPMs up to 4000. so now each cylinder fires 2000 times for the same mile making the total number of detonations that occur 8000. Double the number of detonations. Each time a cylinder fires emissions are created and those emissions gets pushed out the tail pipe. So if the engine RPMs are double even tho the vehicle is moving at the same speed the emissions output will be greater then twice what they would if the vehicle is driven in a higher gear.

The EPA has a very specific drive cycle that must be adhered to This drive cycle also includes the speeds in which the vehicle is to be shifted if it is a manual transmission and into what gear the vehicle needs to be shifted into. It also defines very specific points as to when the vehicle is supposed to be clutched in when coming to a stop.

The proof I have is in the form of 6 data snapshots that have been included with the test results. Those data snapshots show vehicle speed, engine speed, accelerator position and engine load.

Knowing the gear ratios for the transmission and differential as well as the tire size it is not hard to match the vehicle speed and engine speed to the gear the vehicle is in. Not 1 of the data snapshots has the vehicle in the correct gear.5 of the snapshot the car is in a lower gear then it should be. and the last snapshot shows the vehicle is in 5th gear when it should have just been shifted into 4th. This care to guess how that happened? Tacking the car out in second gear and the person driving it missed 3rd and landed in 5th. That same data snapshot shows the accelerator position at 86% (which is more like 91% because the accelerator only goes to 93.3 % i believe) and the engine load is at 100%. My car is 450bhp and the operator has the accelerator almost floored and the engine load is at 100%

The tests are being manipulated. I had to bring my Lincoln MKS in to get tested so I decided to also bring the Solstice in again hoping I would get a person that drives the vehicle properly. Funny thing, my Lincoln also had to do the IM240 test. The check engine light came on when driving to get the emissions done and there is one hell of an exhaust leak between the catalyst and the exhaust manifold. The check engine light was one because the valve timing is outta wack probably due to a bad timing chain. The car has 200K miles on it. It passed with flying colors. I could see and hear the difference in how the vehicles were being driven.

I contacted the State agency that oversees the emissions testing program. Their response was they want me to bring it to their technical center to inspect the vehicle to determine if the car was not operated properly during my previous 3 tests.. I was like what!??!?! How are you going to tell how the car was driven during the previous tests by looking at my car??? You can't. You need to pull the log files from the tests and look at those. I sent over all of the evidence I had to them. Their reply was that they are no longer going to speak with me. I contacted the Attorney General and got no where with them either. I contacted the EPA and they won't do anything about it either. It's all BS.

I have a report from 1998 that was written by a company that was hired by the EPA to test the accuracy of the IM240 test. It states right in that report that the +- 2mph target for the vehicle speed is not tight enough. They stated that a vehicle can be driven and stay within the +- 2mph and the vehicle will produce over 2 times more emissions then when the vehicle is driven on target and there is a minimal amount of fluctuations from the target speed. Funny thing, The +-2mph is still the tolerance today, the EPA simply ignored the report.

Not one of the government agencies state or local that is supposed to monitor over the testing program is going to do anything about the laws being broken. There is a really large number of laws being broken on top of it. I know this is not an isolated occurrence and it's happening to way to many people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
A little money... an email and a laptop with an USB/OBD 2 cable, and you're off to the races! :cool:
P.S. - there are some good sales going on this weekend
Ooo I need to look into that then that sounds like fun, hopefully I can get a deal too. Also forgot to mention thank you for the warm welcome lol the Sky/Solstice Community is fantastic.
 

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2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP Mean Yellow Auto
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Look at how the smog test reports. In grams per mile. If you drive a vehicle in 5th gear with the RPM's at 2000 and the speed is say at 60mph for 1 mile you get x grams. Now drive the vehicle the same mile at the same speed and put it down into 3rd gear for the drive. Say the RPMs are at 4000 because it is in 3rd gear. still driving at 60 mph. But get this. a cylinder will fire once every 2 complete revolutions of the engine. so a 2000 RPMs each cylinder will fire 1000 times. for a 4 cylinder that's a total of 4000 detonations. I used 60 mph on purpose for the example because it would take exactly 1 minute to travel the mile and the engine speed is in minutes. so for the 1 mile taking 1 minute to drive it there is a total of 4000 detonations. Now bump the RPMs up to 4000. so now each cylinder fires 2000 times for the same mile making the total number of detonations that occur 8000. Double the number of detonations. Each time a cylinder fires emissions are created and those emissions gets pushed out the tail pipe. So if the engine RPMs are double even tho the vehicle is moving at the same speed the emissions output will be greater then twice what they would if the vehicle is driven in a higher gear.

The EPA has a very specific drive cycle that must be adhered to This drive cycle also includes the speeds in which the vehicle is to be shifted if it is a manual transmission and into what gear the vehicle needs to be shifted into. It also defines very specific points as to when the vehicle is supposed to be clutched in when coming to a stop.

The proof I have is in the form of 6 data snapshots that have been included with the test results. Those data snapshots show vehicle speed, engine speed, accelerator position and engine load.

Knowing the gear ratios for the transmission and differential as well as the tire size it is not hard to match the vehicle speed and engine speed to the gear the vehicle is in. Not 1 of the data snapshots has the vehicle in the correct gear.5 of the snapshot the car is in a lower gear then it should be. and the last snapshot shows the vehicle is in 5th gear when it should have just been shifted into 4th. This care to guess how that happened? Tacking the car out in second gear and the person driving it missed 3rd and landed in 5th. That same data snapshot shows the accelerator position at 86% (which is more like 91% because the accelerator only goes to 93.3 % i believe) and the engine load is at 100%. My car is 450bhp and the operator has the accelerator almost floored and the engine load is at 100%

The tests are being manipulated. I had to bring my Lincoln MKS in to get tested so I decided to also bring the Solstice in again hoping I would get a person that drives the vehicle properly. Funny thing, my Lincoln also had to do the IM240 test. The check engine light came on when driving to get the emissions done and there is one hell of an exhaust leak between the catalyst and the exhaust manifold. The check engine light was one because the valve timing is outta wack probably due to a bad timing chain. The car has 200K miles on it. It passed with flying colors. I could see and hear the difference in how the vehicles were being driven.

I contacted the State agency that oversees the emissions testing program. Their response was they want me to bring it to their technical center to inspect the vehicle to determine if the car was not operated properly during my previous 3 tests.. I was like what!??!?! How are you going to tell how the car was driven during the previous tests by looking at my car??? You can't. You need to pull the log files from the tests and look at those. I sent over all of the evidence I had to them. Their reply was that they are no longer going to speak with me. I contacted the Attorney General and got no where with them either. I contacted the EPA and they won't do anything about it either. It's all BS.

I have a report from 1998 that was written by a company that was hired by the EPA to test the accuracy of the IM240 test. It states right in that report that the +- 2mph target for the vehicle speed is not tight enough. They stated that a vehicle can be driven and stay within the +- 2mph and the vehicle will produce over 2 times more emissions then when the vehicle is driven on target and there is a minimal amount of fluctuations from the target speed. Funny thing, The +-2mph is still the tolerance today, the EPA simply ignored the report.

Not one of the government agencies state or local that is supposed to monitor over the testing program is going to do anything about the laws being broken. There is a really large number of laws being broken on top of it. I know this is not an isolated occurrence and it's happening to way to many people.
I second that about Colorado air care. Took me 2 years to get my 92 firebird to pass when I moved to that state in 11.
 

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Late to the party, but:

Tires
DDM Bundle
Upgrade brakes, check those hub bolts while you are there.
Tune if a GXP, Turbo or supercharger if NA
 
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2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP - Mysterious
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Also late but on my GXP the trifecta tune was hands down the one single thing that made my heart skip the first time I drove it.
It made me realize the potential of the motor and how much GM had “held back” it’s performance (never got to experience the official GM tune but imagine it being in the same league of “wow what a difference”).

I went from this is a neat car with some juice to, uh ooh I couldget Into some trouble with this thing :)

(all the other mods mentioned are also right up there)
 

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Also late but on my GXP the trifecta tune was hands down the one single thing that made my heart skip the first time I drove it.
It made me realize the potential of the motor and how much GM had “held back” it’s performance (never got to experience the official GM tune but imagine it being in the same league of “wow what a difference”).
I have run stock GXP tune, GMPP, basic canned Trifecta and custom Trifecta (with a turbo change). The canned Trifecta tune is significantly better than the GMPP.

I have always wondered what would have happened if GM had made the GMPP stock. If you look at all the comparison road tests of the day, the Solstice rated somewhere under the top for one reason or another. If they had been sold with the GMPP tune, the performance would have been in top spot and those review results might have significantly affected sales.
 

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...... might have significantly affected sales.
I don't know about elsewhere in the world, but in this area there were waiting lists for both the Sky and the Solstice right up until the closings were announced. I think the only thing that would have affected sales would have been an increase in production capacity as was planned with the move of Kappa2 to Bowling Green. Of course "Kappa2" really wasn't, since a platform change was also planned.
 

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IIRC the knock on the Kappa twins weren't really performance for the turbo variants. The NA is... it is what it is.
The reviewers took issue with primarily two key areas: lack of practicality and cheap hard plastics.
The Coupe had a harder time to compete in its class due to higher performing competing alternatives. See C&D article of that era.

For me the top mods for a GXP/RL would be:
  • Better tires
  • ECM tune (I recommend Trifecta)
  • HFC (I recommend Solo)
  • DDM bracing package
  • Exhaust (optional, but highly recommended)
 

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To your list of improvements I'd add the rear frame stiffener (but that wouldn't matter to the average driver, although IMHO it should have been a stock item on all cars), and better brake pads. If you look at period road tests you see criticism of the gradually decreasing brake performance during repeated stops.

John, my impression (which may be incorrect) is that in Canada at least, sales had lessened due to decreased demand, based on what the dealers (3) that I talked to while hunting for a coupe to buy..
 

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Look at the sales per year for the Kappa. There was a huge % change year over year and not in a good way. The vehicle was hyped up by GM and also by magazines so the first year the number were really high. when people got the cars and found they weren't anything like what was being stated the numbers went south big time. This could have been due to production changes made just before the release or it could have been GM paying trade writers to write good things, or it could have been the writers don't have a clue. whatever the case is the car that was sold was nothing like what was being advertised and reviewed. This is what killed the numbers.

Here is an example.
The Kappa handling is 8 out of a 10.. what the hell is a Lotus Elise then a 20?!??!?!?.. 10 = Lotus Elise type of handling then the Kappa is at best a 3. I am not talking reviews for owners because they have no baseline to make the comparison to. These are ratings/reviews done by MotorTrend and the like and don't include any input from actual owners. The rating they give are how they and they alone rank the vehicle.

A Lotus Elise is a vehicle in the same class as the Kappa, specifically the GXP. Both vehicles are soft top and here are some other metrics.

Lotus Elise
wheel base: 90.6"
track width : front 57.4", rear 59.2"
hp per lb: 0.10
drive wheels: rear

Kappa
wheel base: 95"
track width: front 60.7", rear 61.4"
hp per lb: 0.09
dive wheels: rear

The kappa being a wider vehicle and carrying more weight would make all things equal to the Lotus in terms of handling. But they aren't far from it. for the cheap retail price of < 100.00 USD the Kappas handling improves almost to what the Lotus is.

GM shot themselves in their own foot with trying to increase profit per vehicle. The cost to make the handling close to equal of the Lotus would have been < 10.00 USD for GM. I don't think that anyone would have complained if GM raised the cost of the vehicle by 20 bucks to make the handling close to the same as the Lotus. They would have made money on it for 1 and they would have sold more vehicles as well.

This is only a single aspect of the design. There are many other failings like 3 cup holders for a 2 seat vehicle???!??!?! window switches on little people have the ability to use with the hand closest to the door. The shifter being to close to the radio on the standard transmission. And then we have the behemoth of a muffler that decreases the size of the trunk.

If the Kappa was anything like what was being said about it when it was initially released to the public the sales would not have fallen and an incredible rate.

2007 15% drop from 2006
2008 35% drop from 2007 - 46% drop from 2006
2009 48% drop from 2008 - 70% drop from 2006

The "great recession" started during this time but that didn't get a foot hold until 2009. There was a stead decline of 15% per year leading up to 2009 and that had nothing to do with the great recession.

Truth is GM screwed the pooch when making the vehicle. They wanted profits to come in right out of the gate when it is a known thing that cars do not make money right away. It takes many sales before the tooling gets paid for and GM wanted that tooling paid for faster and to do that they had to cheapen the vehicle and they did so to the point where it didn't even come close to expectations. That is what happened. There would never have been a Kappa2 or a second generation, look at the numbers!!!! 15% decline year over year. They would have made the car for 6 years and that would have been the end of it with GM saying there is no market for this type of car when the truth is there is a market for the stye of vehicle there just isn't a market for an over priced poor build quality vehicle.

My intention is not to bash the Kappas, be we all know they could have been built a whole lot better and with a very minimal cost to build increase. I bought my Solstice knowing this walking into it. I paid 10,000 for mine and not 30,000. I paid a appropriate amount of money for the build quality of the vehicle. Had I paid 30,000 I would have been upset by the overall quality of the vehicle and once the problems started to pile up I would have done the same as most people did, get rid of the car. This would just about be a given considering how GM handles almost all warranty claims with the "This is normal" statement. wheel bearing bolts bolts falling out more then once GM's response "This is normal". Body panel alignment being as much as 1/8" after 5,000 miles GM's response "This is normal". Arm rest cracking when leaning on the arm rest with you arm, GM's response "Don't lean on your arm rest with your arm". And it continues to this day.. Duck tape will fix the air bag system!!!! what's next, tooth picks will keep the brakes working??

Yes I am bashing GM and rightfully so.
 

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An arm rest you can't use and cup holders that break if you do use them, and on and on. My pet peeve was the single horn that gave out an anaemic 'peep', and the place to mount a second horn was already there on the frame. I researched the brand and bought a matching horn (high or low tone, whichever one they shorted us on) and it makes a huge difference. I paid around $9.95 - I wonder what it would have cost GM to make the car safer - $5 a piece at their purchase levels?

That and the handling issue that was immediately obvious to me (but wouldn't bother Joe and Martha Public who just wanted a sunny day tourer) are shortcomings I couldn't forgive.

It was sort of like buying a car as a kit - great potential but only if you add back in all the stuff that should have been there in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I love the car, but I only just liked it before I changed all the sway bars shocks, springs and tune.
 

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An arm rest you can't use and cup holders that break if you do use them, and on and on. My pet peeve was the single horn that gave out an anaemic 'peep', and the place to mount a second horn was already there on the frame. I researched the brand and bought a matching horn (high or low tone, whichever one they shorted us on) and it makes a huge difference. I paid around $9.95 - I wonder what it would have cost GM to make the car safer - $5 a piece at their purchase levels?

That and the handling issue that was immediately obvious to me (but wouldn't bother Joe and Martha Public who just wanted a sunny day tourer) are shortcomings I couldn't forgive.

It was sort of like buying a car as a kit - great potential but only if you add back in all the stuff that should have been there in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I love the car, but I only just liked it before I changed all the sway bars shocks, springs and tune.
Look at it this way:

You got a car that was 90-95% of what you wanted and that was relatively easy to turn ito something that you love.
You also got the justification to discuss what a terrible job that GM did in producing it in the first place.

What more could you have wanted?
 

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I wonder what it would have cost GM to make the car safer - $5 a piece at their purchase levels?

OoOh trust you me their cost is a whole lot lower then 5.00 each. Those horns are not only used in the Solstices and I am sure that GM orders more then a million at a time. think mire like 2.00 each or less.

The point being if you added up all of the small nickle and dime kinda things that would have improved the build quality of the car it may total up to 250.00. so if they mark it up to 500.00 so they are making 100% on those things and they increase the cost of the vehicle by 500.00 do you think the people that paid would walk away from buying the vehicle if it's cost was 28,500 instead of 28,000???

Do you think the fall off percentage in sales would have been the same had they put the 250.00 more into the vehicle?
The additional cost to build being 250.00 would have decreased the sales fall off which would have increased the number of sales resulting in high profits earned to pay for tooling costs faster. GM thinking that reducing the cost to build per vehicle to the point they did so they could collect o the profits sooner was a completely bone headed things to do and actually made it work in completely the opposite of what they wanted. What is the definition of stupidity?? It's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. How many vehicle models has GM does this with, more then one?? OK their executives are stupid.


To prove my point...

2019 figures.


Toyota
global sales: 10,740,000
net income: 48,995,000,000
gross income: 16,946,000,000
cost to do business: 32,049,000,000
divide the cost to do business by the number of cars sold and you get the cost to build each vehicle.

2984.0782122905027932960893854749 per vehicle build price

GM
global sales: 7,720,000
net income: 13,972,000,000
gross income: 6,581,000,000
cost to do business: 7,391,000,000

divide the cost to do business by the number of cars sold and you get the cost to build each vehicle.
957.38341968911917098445595854922 per vehicle build price.


If we level the playing field and have Toyota making the same number of vehicles as GM in that year.

net income: 35,218,007,449
gross income: 12,180,923,650


GM
23,700,000 CEO pay
155,000 employees
235,773 average executive pay (??? executives)
85,763 average per person pay

Toyota
1,860,000 CEO pay
366,283 employees
251,000 average pay (419 executives)
131,000 average per person pay

starting to get a clearer picture here. with GM most of the money goes into the top 20 positions or so in the company not so with Toyota.

Weird how the vehicles are considered to be a better build quality.. The people building them are getting paid to build them better where as the people at the top are getting paid to not make the company money..

average transaction price of a GM vehicle in 2019 was 41,000 and for Toyota is was 38,000 yet Toyota employs more then double the number of people, pays them higher and in the end makes more money them GM.
 

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This conversation is about what GM could have done so they would still be produced today. This is about GM still doing the same thing and not learning from past experience.

I would much rather see the vehicle still being manufactured an part still being available then being able to have purchased one with 20,000 miles on it for 1/3rd of the new price. If the vehicle had a better build quality the sales number would have been far higher and the vehicle might have been in production today. cost cutting is not the only way to make a company profitable and GM cannot seem to get that through their thick skulls after time and time again having it backfire on them they have not figured it out. That is the definition of stupidity.

The Solstice is the last GM vehicle I will ever own in my lifetime. I will never not in a million years purchase another one simply because you are paying almost the highest price for a car that in reality is worth 1/3 of what the price is. you are paying for a vehicle that is only going to make it past 36,000 miles and then turn into a clunker almost overnight.

This shows that build quality = more money made overall, it shows that CEO pay being higher does not make the company more money but instead paying the people building the cars better does.

The executives at GM have a dream of gross income of of 48,000,000,000 and net income of 24,000,000,000 and feel that gross income of 48,000,000,000 and net income of 16,000,000,000 is horrible and the company didn't make enough money. which is crazy thinking because 16,000,000,000 profits is a hell of a lot higher then 6,000,000,000. but to them the company is not making enough money if it has a bottom line income of 16,000,000,000 but it is with a bottom line income of 6,000,000,000
o_O
 

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The demise of the Kappas was due to shuttering down of its parent brand. It is unfortunate that the short lifespan for these cars didn't allow it to evolve and improve upon. Take for instance Nissan's 350Z. It looked real sexy and seem to act like it... up until you sit inside and revel at the low rent plastic interior. There were all sorts of issues too that led to class action lawsuits. But guess what, it sojourned on and Nissan evolved it into a much improved 370z and now the 400z.

There are many examples of car models improving over its life existence. Given time I am sure the Solstice/Sky would've evolved greatly too.
 
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