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Just wondering on daily driver ability in the summer.
I just purchased a 2007 base Silver Solstice, loaded, with 15,000 miles & wanting to go LS3 with t-56. May be dreaming but may pull the trigger this year.
 

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Dave has his Mallet there. LS2.

My LS3 conversion runs great in all conditions. The "normal operating temperature" of the LS powertrain is considerably higher than for the stock kappa. After our conversion I was concerned to see temps in 225 - 230 on occasion. Then Dave educated me.

When idling without the a/c on, the computer turns the fans on at 228 degrees and off again at 216 degrees. So it is not abnormal to see temps around 230.

Mine runs on a "cool" summer day at 198-205 in cruise mode. At idle, it can creep up to 215.

On a hot summer day, it will run in the range of 205 - 215 while in cruise mode. If I hammer it, it can go up to 225 with a high of 230.

Since adding the vented fenders, the temperatures have remained basically unchanged, however it will drop from its high to a much lower temperature a lot more quickly. The fenders clearly aid in heat rejection.
 

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Dave has his Mallet there. LS2.

My LS3 conversion runs great in all conditions. The "normal operating temperature" of the LS powertrain is considerably higher than for the stock kappa. After our conversion I was concerned to see temps in 225 - 230 on occasion. Then Dave educated me.

When idling without the a/c on, the computer turns the fans on at 228 degrees and off again at 216 degrees. So it is not abnormal to see temps around 230.

Mine runs on a "cool" summer day at 198-205 in cruise mode. At idle, it can creep up to 215.

On a hot summer day, it will run in the range of 205 - 215 while in cruise mode. If I hammer it, it can go up to 225 with a high of 230.

Since adding the vented fenders, the temperatures have remained basically unchanged, however it will drop from its high to a much lower temperature a lot more quickly. The fenders clearly aid in heat rejection.
Little bit of misinformation here Rob. LS motors don't run "considerably" hotter than any other motor. The opposite is more often the case actually. The LNF is putting out almost twice the HP/cylinder as many LS motors, and has half the cooling system. If nothing else, common sense would dictate that the V8 cooling system would have a far easier time keeping the engine cool than a turbo 4 would.

Coolant fan settings are different on every LS motor. Some come on as early as 192*, and they can start at that temp at as high as 40% duty cycle. The fan temp settings are merely a setting in the particular tune. If your fan temps are what you say, then in my opinion, they are set WAY wrong.

As far as your particular car, you posted some pics awhile back about your front bumper paint I believe. Anyway, I happened to look at those pictures and I can tell you why your car runs hot. I hate to say it but from what I could see in those pics, your fan/shroud setup is horribly inefficient. And it really doesn't matter what you do with the fenders, the heat issue is way before that air ever gets back to the fenders.

The reason your car runs at the temps it does has very little to do with it having an LS motor, and everything to do with how that motor was installed and tuned. An LS motor shouldn't have heat issues any more likely than any other motor, and certainly not as much as trying to keep an LNF at the same power levels cool.
 

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Thanks for the response GM

I appreciate your input.

Mine does not run "hot" in my opinion.


I was told by several "experts" that the engine management system for the C6 is designed to run the motor at about the same temperature as the 2.0 that is in the 200 to 210 range as "normal".

I also read that the higher operating temperature increases the emission performance and has been viewed as a technique to increase the life of the motor. I read about tests done by UPS where they actually insulated the motor to raise the operating temperature and hold it near an "optimum" point which was above 200 f.

I have run my car under a lot of different conditions and it, in my opinion is not running "hot" at 205 or 210.

If it were running 240 or 260 I would be concerned.

The primary issue is the packaging. Once you stuff the motor in there and with the constraint of the front structure, you are pretty much stuck with where the cooling will fit and how wide, tall the radiator can be.

If you have thoughts on how to repackage the AC condenser, the radiator and improve air flow I am happy to learn from you. I know you have a lot of skills.

The major heat related issue that we experienced with the car was with heat flowing up through the transmission tunnel and floor boards. Once we installed the thermal blanket and wrapped the exhaust and cats with thermal insulating wrap, the interior is very comfortable.

The fenders did not drop the temperatures which I believe were due to how the tune is controlling the paramaters but it did significantly reduce the time it takes for the car to go from temps above 210 back down to 190's.

:thumbs:
 

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don't you have the hot cam in there too Rob? with that and the tune that DDM installed, it probably performs best at above 210º
 

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don't you have the hot cam in there too Rob? with that and the tune that DDM installed, it probably performs best at above 210º
Yes

On a 65 f day on the freeway crusing in 6th it will run about 195. If I get on it, it will go up to 205. Basically like my 2.0 does

On a hot day, 95-100 it will do the same freeway run at 200 to 210 depending.

It is not unusual to see 220. Some times for a short duration 230.
 

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Thanks for the response GM

I appreciate your input.

Mine does not run "hot" in my opinion.


I was told by several "experts" that the engine management system for the C6 is designed to run the motor at about the same temperature as the 2.0 that is in the 200 to 210 range as "normal".

I also read that the higher operating temperature increases the emission performance and has been viewed as a technique to increase the life of the motor. I read about tests done by UPS where they actually insulated the motor to raise the operating temperature and hold it near an "optimum" point which was above 200 f.

I have run my car under a lot of different conditions and it, in my opinion is not running "hot" at 205 or 210.

If it were running 240 or 260 I would be concerned.

The primary issue is the packaging. Once you stuff the motor in there and with the constraint of the front structure, you are pretty much stuck with where the cooling will fit and how wide, tall the radiator can be.

If you have thoughts on how to repackage the AC condenser, the radiator and improve air flow I am happy to learn from you. I know you have a lot of skills.

The major heat related issue that we experienced with the car was with heat flowing up through the transmission tunnel and floor boards. Once we installed the thermal blanket and wrapped the exhaust and cats with thermal insulating wrap, the interior is very comfortable.

The fenders did not drop the temperatures which I believe were due to how the tune is controlling the paramaters but it did significantly reduce the time it takes for the car to go from temps above 210 back down to 190's.

:thumbs:

OMG Please Please tell me you didn't wrap the exhaust and CATS! Do you have a fire suppression system in that car? Does molten lava flow out your tailpipes? If not, don't worry, it will eventually. Yikes.
 

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I should probably keep my mouth shut Rob. You're obviously happy with your car and how it operates. That's awesome, I'm glad you're enjoying your car.

Many of the things you've been told are very wrong though. I know they were told to you by people you trust, but that doesn't make them right. Anyone thinking that it's alright to wrap catalytic converters with ANYTHING because they're "running too cool" obviously has no clue about how they even operate.

On the cooling system, sorry but yours isn't operating properly. Because of how the tune, radiator, fans and ductwork was done, your car does NOT have a cooling system that is efficient and under control. Does it work for you? Obviously it does. Is it right? Not in my opinion. I have thousands of logs showing coolant temps in hundreds of different engine configurations. I know what a properly controlled cooling system should look and operate like. Not unusual to see 220 or 230? Sure, it's "somewhat" normal, but that doesn't mean it's right. The cars I've built and run rarely see 210, much less 220 or 230. I have logs showing hours of thrashing mixed with high ambient temp stop and go driving and the coolant temps stay between ~185 to ~205 at the most. Having control over the cooling system is part of the build and the tune. It has nothing to do with the car or the engine, those are just excuses.

I'm glad you're happy with your car. Just try to keep from telling others things like LS motors run "considerably hotter" just because yours does. The answer to the OP's original question should have been this... If an LS swap in a Kappa is done properly, there should be no problem whatsoever daily driving it in hot climates.
 

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Actually, I am not telling them my opinion. I have talked with several engineers and done much research. The hotter a heat engine runs, the more efficient it is. The efficiency is a function the temperature difference between the combustion chamber and the atmosphere at the exhaust outlet. The math is well documented and understood

In addition, mechanical systems like the ring to cylinder interface experience less friction and wear, so last longer at higher temperatures.

My research has identified many references to this particular engine being set up by GM to run at temps above 200. The most often cited reason is to reduce emissions.

The tune is the factory C6 standard tune with only make lpay changes to allow the software to interface with the BCM. The single board computer is stock GM.

All the evidence, data and research I have seen says that the engine is designed by GM engineering to run at higher temps than we used to see ten or twenty years ago.

As to the wrap, people have been wrapping the exhaust for decades with generally very positive results. The practice is the poor mans alternative to ceramic coating which is a common practice in performance cars.

The issue with the cats is interesting. The physical constraints on packaging forces the cats to be installed a distance from the headers suck that they heat up and reach full operating temp -and efficiency- during warm up, but at the first long light, they are separated enough from the headers that they drop below normal operating temp and lose efficiency. The result is a failed emission test. By wrapping them, they retain some heat and maintain they're efficiency.

In looking at the test data, the wrap also contributes to higher exhaust velocity and increased efficiency.

I do believe there is room for improvement and am interested in any suggestions you may have to offer.

In looking at the tune data, there is no reason for me to believe that it is doing other than what GM designed for it to do.

The issue with temps above 230 a
Which I was seeing occasionally before it was broken in were as you correctly suggested a result of packaging and air flow restrictions. If you have thoughts on that I would very much like to hear them.
 

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Actually, I am not telling them my opinion. I have talked with several engineers and done much research. The hotter a heat engine runs, the more efficient it is. The efficiency is a function the temperature difference between the combustion chamber and the atmosphere at the exhaust outlet. The math is well documented and understood

In addition, mechanical systems like the ring to cylinder interface experience less friction and wear, so last longer at higher temperatures.

My research has identified many references to this particular engine being set up by GM to run at temps above 200. The most often cited reason is to reduce emissions.

The tune is the factory C6 standard tune with only make lpay changes to allow the software to interface with the BCM. The single board computer is stock GM.

All the evidence, data and research I have seen says that the engine is designed by GM engineering to run at higher temps than we used to see ten or twenty years ago.

As to the wrap, people have been wrapping the exhaust for decades with generally very positive results. The practice is the poor mans alternative to ceramic coating which is a common practice in performance cars.

The issue with the cats is interesting. The physical constraints on packaging forces the cats to be installed a distance from the headers suck that they heat up and reach full operating temp -and efficiency- during warm up, but at the first long light, they are separated enough from the headers that they drop below normal operating temp and lose efficiency. The result is a failed emission test. By wrapping them, they retain some heat and maintain they're efficiency.

In looking at the test data, the wrap also contributes to higher exhaust velocity and increased efficiency.

I do believe there is room for improvement and am interested in any suggestions you may have to offer.

In looking at the tune data, there is no reason for me to believe that it is doing other than what GM designed for it to do.

The issue with temps above 230 a
Which I was seeing occasionally before it was broken in were as you correctly suggested a result of packaging and air flow restrictions. If you have thoughts on that I would very much like to hear them.

I've given you my thoughts but you're not interested in listening. Your mind is made up already and I've already tried to set it straight with no luck.

BTW, what "tune data" are you looking at? You DO NOT have a "stock" tune. And sorry but your engine is doing things a HELLUVA LOT differently than what "GM designed for it to do". Actually, you really SHOULDN'T have a stock C6 tune. What does your setup have in common with a stock C6? Very little. And the comment about engine temps being higher before it was "broken in", sorry but your engine was "broken in" long before you ever took delivery of that car (after the V8 swap).

And I didn't say your temp problems were caused by "packaging and air flow restrictions", I said they were caused by a poorly modified engine swap as far as the cooling system, and a poorly setup tune.

Sure, wrapping exhaust increases heat retention inside the exhaust, but the downsides are WAAAAAAYYYYY too high. Sure some race teams wrap exhausts. Are you looking for every last tenth of horsepower and are willing to replace entire exhaust systems after a few hours of track time? Because that's what those race teams do. There is a reason the factory engineers have NEVER wrapped stock exhausts, ESPECIALLY cat converters. And it's not because of cost. As far as wrapping the cat, I think you are the only person on the planet that has a wrapped cat. I can't believe there is another person alive today that works on cars that would think that's a good idea. It's not. As far as "packaging restrictions", there are few 'restrictions" that can't be overcome in putting a V8 in these cars. Cat converter placement is one. The person that put your swap together CHOSE to put the cats too far downstream. The cats can be put where they're supposed to be, I know because mine are.


Again, I've tried to educate you on this stuff and straighten out some of your misinformation but it really looks like you already have your mind made up.
 

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Little bit of misinformation... The LNF is putting out almost twice the HP/cylinder as many LS motors, and has half the cooling system. If nothing else, common sense would dictate that the V8 cooling system would have a far easier time keeping the engine cool than a turbo 4 would.
A V8 also has twice as many cylinders. So, saying that a 4 cylinder has half as much of a cooling system may be true from a certain perspective, it doesn't necessarily mean that a V8, with twice as many cylinders, has a better cooling system than the one for an LNF. Yes, a NA V8 should cool more efficiently than a TURBO 4, BUT that doesn't necessarily equate into cooler operating temps. In the forums I've read, the LS3 Corvette and Camaro owners are seeing the temps around 200* or higher. I agree with your statements about not wrapping exhausts and cats, but your opinion of the cooling system is one I'd have to disagree with.
 

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I am still open minded. I was offering additional information as background.

I am interested in your suggestions on how to increase efficiency.

I observed how the car ran. I did research which suggested that the way it was running is within the normal range of experience that others have seen. I looked further and found more evidence that with the C6 design, the higher operating temps were first introduced.

I am no expert, but this is what I found. You have lots of personal experience and I am interested gn what you think can be done.

When I look at the spaces under the hood, finding ways to improve air flow are not obvious to my untrained eye. You hVe stated that you have ways of improving do please, share them. :thumbs:
 

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So you have caused me to consider this whole set of challenges again.

The reason I wrapped initially were:
1) the cats were not maintaining operating temperature and I was getting cat efficiency codes on a frequent basis
2) the car has to pass local emission tests which it will not do if the cats are not above their threshold temperature.
3) the cockpit was really hot and the cats are right under the cockpit

After wrapping the cats they stay above threshold temperature but I have not actually taken measurements. I can and will do so. My belief, before you triggered this discussion, was that the cats were not running over temperature but were instead staying at operating temperature because of the insulation countering the heat loss due to their physical location which is "too far" from the headers. The exhaust gas temperature was dropping enough to allow the cats to drop below their threshold temperature which I understand is 500 f for some versions and as high as 1100 f for others.

I can take measurements of the external surface of the cats and based on your inputs I clearly need to do so. An option is to remove the wrap on the cats and see how they perform since the exhaust leading up to the cats is now insluated. Its possible that the insulation before the cats is providing the necessary heat transfer to keep the cats at their operating threshold. What is your opinion?

Here are some representative examples of the inputs I found that lead me to decide to wrap the headers and the cats

Temperature Control
Engine compartment temperature is raised as a result of the hot exhaust components. Wrapping the exhaust components reduces the overall temperature of the air in the engine compartment.

Increased Engine Efficiency
Wrapped exhaust manifolds reduce heat transfer to the intake manifolds. The engine operates more efficiently when the intake air is cooler. When the engine's intake manifolds are subjected to the heat produced by the exhaust system, the intake manifold transfers the heat to the intake air, reducing engine efficiency

And

Increases Speed of Exhaust
High temperature exhaust gases have lower density than low temperature exhaust gases. By insulating the exhaust system, the higher temperatures are maintained, which in turn lower the density of the exhaust gas. Lower density exhaust gases travel through the exhaust system faster.
 

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Take some pictures of the radiator/fans/shrouds and front underneath areas showing how the air goes into the radiator.

Unless you're ready to throw away Ken and Dave's (Gilbert) tuning, I can't help you there. I've tried to tell you guys that Ken and Dave are not "tuners". They don't have the required experience/training/knowledge and natural ability to "fix" things. I know this because before I worked with Dave, they had no clue how to tune an LNF. They still don't, they just work off of tunes they've copied (stolen) from me. Dave's "Championship winning Solstice"? It won that championship on MY tuning, not his. Look at what sblindey just said...
My guy was having problems dealing with the existing tune and older software, so they just trashed it and rewrote from scratch
I've tried to tell you guys this stuff, you just don't want to listen because these guys (vendors here) are your heroes. I'm glad sblindey listened and got his car fixed. I can just imagine what his tuner had to say about Ken and Dave's tuning! lol.

Take a bunch of pictures around the radiator and front end and I'll tell you what I think. I can't help you on the tune or the fan settings. I think on that you should talk to sblindey and maybe have his tuner fix your car too.

On the cat subject, what brand/kind of cats are you running?
 

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Edited due to getting too far off track of OP.
Lol. Sorry. I think I did answer the OP's question though, I even put it in bold. It's all Rob's fault anyway! I figured it was ok though since he is the Godfather of this forum isn't he?

Sorry Rob, I just realized your car was the one DDM did. Wasn't yours the 15 month build? Different vendor, same answer though to a lesser degree. I'm sure Ken was still the one doing the "tuning" work. At least Dave Michel is a guy I feel is trustworthy and honest and will give you a straight answer. At one time I felt the same about Dave Gilbert, but unfortunately, sometimes people change. (Swaybars anyone? lol)

Sorry for the off topic. Maybe a moderator needs to step in? Oops, already one here. It's all good. Has the OP even been back or did we scare him away?
 

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My experience with temps is similar to Rob's, and I am in Phoenix, so I see some serious ambient temps in summer, etc. My research told me the same as Rob's that those temps he outlined were normal for the LS3 in Vettes, Camaros, etc. I've had no heat issues in cabin or CELs related to cats, ever. Obviously, my packaging is even tighter with the blower and accessories, etc.

As for GMTech's far superior V8 swaps, I'm all for better ways to do these and am sure that he has come up with some nifty solutions that make for a better swap. I think that is fantastic and it is clear that he is very proud of his expertise. However, I am not the best engineer in the world, so I do not have the ability to construct a superior swap on my own time. I had two real choices -- Mallett and Werks. Mallett was more than twice the Werks price, Wade was not convenient to me and Archie was not really doing these for retail customers. DDM had not started yet. I got the hugely discounted price for the live install and the build went from there. The car is amazing and even better following the recent street tune and tweak.

I think we all agree that GMTech's swap (is it finished or ongoing?) is far superior in every way with all the proprietary mounts and tuning and replacement parts and new dash, etc. But the rest of us have to choose what is available in the marketplace, and not sure we could afford his swap if he retailed it to the public and added standard labor for all the hours it takes him to build one. With the engine and tranny at 9K to start, the costs add up quickly from there, especially if you want it completed in a couple of weeks (or a weekend).

GMTech, clearly there is some history with some vendors here. I can say, it would be helpful to all on this forum if you could lend your sage advice with respect to some of your expertise on swaps. You asked for pictures of Rob's radiator setup so you can point out all of the things that are incorrect about it. So, can we expect you to post pictures of yours, so we can see how a proper setup is done? If I recall, you don't want your engineering stolen, etc. That is fine, but then what good does it do to point out all the issues without providing any solutions?

BTW, I have a line on a nearly new LS3 and want to do another swap for charity. I can't tell you how much I would love it if we could use your swap for this build. Any interest? BTW, I have a GMRoadster tune on the 2.0 charity car. Do you have a tune that is better? (It is an auto, tops out at 22-23 psi.) I'm serious. I'd love a bit more power, smoother delivery, etc. (Can you get into the shift points, firmness, etc.?)

Anyway, sorry to hijack the V8's in Phoenix thread further.

To get back on topic, Robert, PM me and I'd be happy to show you my car here in Phx. I am biased, but I think it is the second best Solstice in the world...
 
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