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Just because it is strong for the short time you are running it doesn't mean it doesn't start to hiccup once the pump gets warm after running for a while.


Innova makes a decent scan tool. their 99.00 one does live data and logging. The more expensive the more features you get. the 140.00 one does ABS and SRS codes. as you step up you get things like graphing, TPMS, whole network access. They top of the line is 600.00 and has the touchscreen interface. the next model down I believe has all of the same functions as the top of the line, the only thing it doesn't have is a large touch screen interface. The cost of that one is 330.00.

It's a quality built tool, I bought mine about 13 years ago and at the time the cost was 350.00. The 130.00 model now does more then what mine does. My scanner has worked on every single vehicle I have plugged it into and it has not hand any issues that weren't the fault of the vehicle.
 
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If you want the mode22 PIDS (enhanced OBD) you will need to buy the 330.00 model.
 

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Any help you can offer would be great KG.

As far as the low pressure fuel pump, I am "pretty" sure it is fine as it flowed strong (like cover the top of the conmtainer with a towel, splashing up in my face strong) when i was filling up the 1 liter glass beaker to test the gas...

I only have a cheap OBDII reader that shows codes. I know John had mentioned a tech2 clone and you have mentioned a VC nano... I am leaning away from software install type readers.
Is there something middle of the road you can suggest that Data Logs?

I did use the Trifecta EZ Flash software to Data log this morning but I am not sure how one opens those files?
An option for you to think about is to use a Bluetooth OBD2 dongle with the Torque app on your phone. The dongles are available for very little, although the speed increases with price. The basic app is free, and the enhanced version was only a few dollars the last time I checked.

You may not have to do any logging, being able to look at the freeze-frame data associated with the code may be enough and your reader may already do that.
 
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Discussion Starter · #84 · (Edited)
I have a bargain basement $25 autozone special so probably not.

BUT!!!

Drove home from work and decided to drive all 11 miles with no boost (almost). It started sputtrering once or twice then never came back.

I leaned into it WOT on the last two long blocks and still no sputter.

Ran the codes and i have a pending 2187! (finally something).
System too lean at idle?

Idle is mostly not where i have my problems with sputtering..
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
So could be injectors?
It’s all four cylinders so…fuel rail?
Fuel Pump?
(Stretching) gas cap? (I always give it at least 3 clicks) - I did have a problem about a month ago with filling up at the station as it kept shutting off but that problem went away when I replaced the evap solenoid..
Which I just double checked this weekend and it still is holding a seal when you blow into it… the bad one didn’t.
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
more data.
On the advice of Dave from Werks I replaced the stock o rings on the new sensors with slightly thicker ones he had provided in the packaging.
I really had to force them in with lube and all.

gave the throttle body elbow t-bolts a couple more hard turns then took it for a run out in the freeway and ran it hard.

it only sputtered once then quickly dropped out of sputter and ran fine the rest of the way.

the sputter certainly isn’t happening at WOT. The car is pretty happy when the pedal is on the metal.

this is really sporadic and random and I am leaning towards possible particulate in that tank of gas..
Maybe just maybe the Techron is doing it’s thing..

will post what trifecta comes back when They get back to me.

-side note +1 for ZZP customer service as I gave them a call regarding the HPFP and had some questions for them before I bought one. The lady I spoke to was genuinely interested in the problem and spent 15 minutes on the phone with me even though I hadn’t bought anything yet.
She was knowledgeable and friendly. That was refreshing and thought I’d mention it.
 

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System to lean at idle is an air leak between the MAF and the cylinder head. The reason why you are seeing the error code is because at idle there is a vacuum on the intake system. When it's boosted the pressure is higher then barometric so air would blow out which may cause a rich condition depending on how bad the leak is. At an idle the volume of air that is being pulled into the engine is pretty small, small air leak = large change to idle AFR. You can also be seeing the issue manifest it's self on the boosted side of things as well and it would be more pronounced at lower RPMs/boost. This is because of the small air leak = large change to AFR in a low boost scenario. When approaching maximum boost PSI the leak might not change much if at all comapird to the leak at idle. It might be enough of a leak to cause a misfire but not enough to trip a rich condition DTC.


Attached is the write up on the P2187 DTC
 

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When the engine is cool start up the car and spray "Brake-Kleen" on all of your charge tube connections. If the RPM's jump up you found where the leak is. Use the red tube when spraying the Brake-Kleen

I did also want to note a problem with most charge tube designs. The cold side pipe has the mounting plate for the MAP sensor. If you are using upgraded sensors there is only a single bolt location on them. you MUST use both screws even tho only a single bolt is holding the sensor, if you do not you will have an air leak through the unused bolt hole.
 

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Have you checked the alternator fusible link. There's a topic where @kgschlosser has helped someone out who had intermittent problems with that. I know the symptoms were different but since your problem has been real elusive it might be worth a try? It made me think about this and also the battery when I read you checked all your negatives / ground straps.

Barring that and fuel delivery maybe you should try another, stock ECM (maybe borrow one from somebody or get a salvaged one to save some $$)
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
Update from Trifecta this morning after sending my log files. I am going to email them back and let them know that this issue preceded the new turbo so it seems unlikely it’s the wastegate on the “new” turbo as the stock would have had an identical issue.
What is does make me wonder is if the problem is just before the wastegate?

here is their email:


Re: TRIFECTA Calibration Posted
Hi,
According to the log, the car is producing boost even when the wastegate is being commanded shut.
This could indicate the bypass valve isn't doing its job, or turbo wastegate has too much preload.
Can you adjust the preload on the wastegate actuator arm by turning the nut counter clockwise one full turn?
Please record another log after doing this.
Thanks,
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Does anyone know the size of the rubber vacuum hoses that run to the turbo? It seems I am unable to find the size in internet searches. I wanted to order a spool of it and replace all the rubber vacuum hoses while i am eliminating everything else?
Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #93 ·
Does anyone know the size of the rubber vacuum hoses that run to the turbo? It seems I am unable to find the size in internet searches. I wanted to order a spool of it and replace all the rubber vacuum hoses while i am eliminating everything else?
Thanks!
Nobody knows the size of the vacuum lines to the turbo and cold side charge pipe?
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
More Data:
Backed the wastegate nut one turn as per Trifectas request and still having some very mild sputtering.
Restored the stock tune and sent them the data logs. They responded that perhaps i should shorten the gap on the plugs.
Right now they are brand new and at .32.
Should i go to .30 and is anyone else running that?
I know wspohn has the BWK04... .
-wspohn, if you are reading this, do you remember your gap by any chance?


As they stated below that does not necessarily mean the battery is healthy, however the dealer stated they replaced it before i bought the car about 6 months ago.
Its an AC Delco battery and I tested the battery voltage at 12.2V car off no keys in ignition and 14.39 with the engine running with a multimeter.

-What else could cause "spark not being strong enough" given we have new plugs and coils?



Here is the info from Trifecta (love that these guys are being so helpful).

Looking at the log, I don't see any boost control issues at all. Since adjusting the wastegate, boost error isn't really a concern:


image.png
Blue is actual, yellow is commanded - its perfect


Since it did not set any misfire codes this go-around, we can safely assume your misfires are indeed due to spark blowout either due to the plugs, coils, or the spark just not being strong enough for other electrical reasons.


Battery voltage isn't always a good indicator of battery health or its ability to deliver the needed power under heavy load, so its really tough to diagnose.


For now, it seems 21psi is OK, but 23psi causes misfires. Have you tried decreasing spark plug gap by a couple of thousandths?
 

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I think you can run them at .28 and be fine, it may help. Not the same car but I run a boosted v-8, NA gap 0.45, suggested boosted gap 0.32, but I run them at .028 to avoid the occasional misfire. Another method that I have used in some instances was side gapping the plugs. This opens up the spark a little better and helps expose it the the air/fuel charge.
 

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Now the misfire at high boost can have reasons associated with it. You had stated that the problem is happening at low boost and bringing the car to WOT makes the problem goes away which is the opposite of what Trifecta is saying. You had stated that the problem starts at low/no boost.

I would need to see a complete data log from the time the car is started through a several mile drive to when the car gets turned off, the problem has to happen during his time.

If you want I can send you my HPTuners dongle and the software it free to use for data logging and can be downloaded from HP tuners website. This will give you a heap load of PIDS and ePIDS that you can log the data from. It looks like the data being given to you by Trifecta is proprietary as the scale does not make any sense.

Here is what a log output from HPTuners looks like.

This is a 10 minute log of me doing a 3rd gear WOT run. I have the marker set to when the car was moving at 89 MPH in 3rd gear @ 6478 RPMs

Font Rectangle Magenta Display device Event


On the very left are all of the PIDS that are being monitored and the values they are showing are what was happening at that exact time.

air load is 171.3%
speed 89mph
cat temp 1675°F
volumetric efficiency airflow 31.68 lb/min
boost pressure 35.1psi
acel position 100%
desired boost 88.2%
ECT 205°F
IAT 88°F
MAF airflow 33.61 lb/min
MAP absolute 35.2psi
timing advance 12.0°
knock retard 0°
TP pos 83.1%
fuel rail pressure 2112psi
desired fuel rail pressure 2176psi

All of the data needed to see if there is a hiccup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #97 ·
Now the misfire at high boost can have reasons associated with it. You had stated that the problem is happening at low boost and bringing the car to WOT makes the problem goes away which is the opposite of what Trifecta is saying. You had stated that the problem starts at low/no boost.

I would need to see a complete data log from the time the car is started through a several mile drive to when the car gets turned off, the problem has to happen during his time.

If you want I can send you my HPTuners dongle and the software it free to use for data logging and can be downloaded from HP tuners website. This will give you a heap load of PIDS and ePIDS that you can log the data from. It looks like the data being given to you by Trifecta is proprietary as the scale does not make any sense.

Here is what a log output from HPTuners looks like.

This is a 10 minute log of me doing a 3rd gear WOT run. I have the marker set to when the car was moving at 89 MPH in 3rd gear @ 6478 RPMs

View attachment 115767

On the very left are all of the PIDS that are being monitored and the values they are showing are what was happening at that exact time.

air load is 171.3%
speed 89mph
cat temp 1675°F
volumetric efficiency airflow 31.68 lb/min
boost pressure 35.1psi
acel position 100%
desired boost 88.2%
ECT 205°F
IAT 88°F
MAF airflow 33.61 lb/min
MAP absolute 35.2psi
timing advance 12.0°
knock retard 0°
TP pos 83.1%
fuel rail pressure 2112psi
desired fuel rail pressure 2176psi

All of the data needed to see if there is a hiccup.
Thanks KG!
I may take you up on that offer. Since i paid Trifecta, i do want to pursue it a little further with them before throwing in the towel and starting over first..

The low boost misfire was with the Trifecta tune loaded and before i changed the preload on the wastegate, both at their request.

Now that it is running the stock tune and the preload has changed, i am only getting minor sputtering at high boost. (I also feel like i am so slow) That is the feedback from them i just posted.
Apologies for the lack of clarity.

Now they want me to gap the plugs and pull another log. Willing to try anything. I am still stuck in my head on the issue pre-existing the new turbo but, happy to have it run without sputtering (mostly) as a good starting point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #98 ·
As a possible tangent aside:
I poured that liter of tank pumped suspect gas from the Solstice at the start of this into my nearly full Jeep.
It later threw a power train code (I haven’t had a chance to check her as I have been all solstice this last two weeks)
The code disappeared and maybe it was just an odd coincidence but an interesting note…
Maybe instead it water or sediment the gas was a bad chemical composition that would pass a visual inspection?
 

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to high an alcohol content would cause these kinds of problems.

Easy to test since you have a measured flask..

fill it to the 90% mark with the gas from the tank. fill the last 10% with water. cap the container and shake it for 2 minutes. shake it really good. The open the cap to vent it and close it up. shake for another 2 minutes then set it down and wait an hour or so.

if the gasoline has 10% alcohol like it should have the water gasoline separation line should change to something like 18% water and the rest gasoline. the higher the water percentage the more alcohol is in the gasoline. alcohol bonds to water and that is why the water gasoline will change because the water is pulling the alcohol out of the gasoline...

see what you come up with.

The nose test is always good to do as well. if it doesn't smell like gasoline that it is crap.
 

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ethanol is cheaper by volume then gasoline is. and with gasoline being as expensive as it is I wouldn't be surprised of shady distributors putting more ethanol in the gas then what is supposed to be in it. no more then 10% by law.
 
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