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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Code p0016p0011 car was running like crap had timing codes change both vts intake solenoid had aluminum shavings on it.thought that wasn’t good,changed oil and filter cleared code’s and through same codes.could it be timing chain issue,I’m also getting no boost
 

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The P0011 is the intake camshaft being too far advanced
the P0016 is a generic code that states there is a mismatch between the cam position sensor and the crank sensor.

You would get no boost/low boost if those codes are set because it would place the car into limp mode so you boost will be limited to only 4 or 5 psi, maybe less.

When you replaced the VVT solenoids did you inspect the screens on the old ones for any metal flake? If you still have them you should do this. If you use a black piece of paper and wipe the screen with a Q-Tip then wipe the Q-Tip on the paper any metal bits you will be able to see easier. If you shine a flashlight on the paper where you wiped the Q-Tip the metal will sparkle and really be visible.

The cam position sensors are located at the back of the engine at the fire wall. Exhaust is on the passenger side an intake on the drivers side. The sensors are accessible but not easily visible. The clips for the wiring harnesses push up to clip in. I would pull the clip on the intake sensor to get the harness up to where you can see if there is any excess debris or contamination in it. The valve cover can leak down onto the clip so it is a good idea to check it and make sure it is cleaned and also clipped in all the way.

Are you sure you put the solenoids in correctly? While the wiring clips are keyed to only plug into the correct solenoid the hole that the solenoids go into are not keyed. If you put the exhaust solenoid into the intake cam hole and the intake solenoid into the exhaust cam hole the clips are wires are long enough so you can plug them in that way but when the ECM goes to adjust the intake cam timing it ends up adjusting the timing of the exhaust cam... So make sure those are plugged in right just for the sake of doing it.

To check and see what is going on past that is going to require an oscilloscope to check the output from the cam position sensors and the crank position sensor to see if they are doing what they should be. The VVT solenoids also need to be tested to verify that they are working properly. Many times I have bought parts new and they were bad right out of the box, so don't think that because you just replaced them that they are good and not causing an issue.

If all of those things check out the problem is going to be an issue with the intake cam phaser or an issue with the timing chain, tensioner is no good or the chain has stretched.


How many miles are on the car?
Were they fun miles with spirited driving, or cruising miles?
Has the timing chain been replaced?
If Yes to the question above
At what mileage was the timing chain replaced?
What was the scope of the work, what components were replaced?
What brand chain and components were used?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The P0011 is the intake camshaft being too far advanced
the P0016 is a generic code that states there is a mismatch between the cam position sensor and the crank sensor.

You would get no boost/low boost if those codes are set because it would place the car into limp mode so you boost will be limited to only 4 or 5 psi, maybe less.

When you replaced the VVT solenoids did you inspect the screens on the old ones for any metal flake? If you still have them you should do this. If you use a black piece of paper and wipe the screen with a Q-Tip then wipe the Q-Tip on the paper any metal bits you will be able to see easier. If you shine a flashlight on the paper where you wiped the Q-Tip the metal will sparkle and really be visible.

The cam position sensors are located at the back of the engine at the fire wall. Exhaust is on the passenger side an intake on the drivers side. The sensors are accessible but not easily visible. The clips for the wiring harnesses push up to clip in. I would pull the clip on the intake sensor to get the harness up to where you can see if there is any excess debris or contamination in it. The valve cover can leak down onto the clip so it is a good idea to check it and make sure it is cleaned and also clipped in all the way.

Are you sure you put the solenoids in correctly? While the wiring clips are keyed to only plug into the correct solenoid the hole that the solenoids go into are not keyed. If you put the exhaust solenoid into the intake cam hole and the intake solenoid into the exhaust cam hole the clips are wires are long enough so you can plug them in that way but when the ECM goes to adjust the intake cam timing it ends up adjusting the timing of the exhaust cam... So make sure those are plugged in right just for the sake of doing it.

To check and see what is going on past that is going to require an oscilloscope to check the output from the cam position sensors and the crank position sensor to see if they are doing what they should be. The VVT solenoids also need to be tested to verify that they are working properly. Many times I have bought parts new and they were bad right out of the box, so don't think that because you just replaced them that they are good and not causing an issue.

If all of those things check out the problem is going to be an issue with the intake cam phaser or an issue with the timing chain, tensioner is no good or the chain has stretched.


How many miles are on the car?
Were they fun miles with spirited driving, or cruising miles?
Has the timing chain been replaced?
If Yes to the question above
At what mileage was the timing chain replaced?
What was the scope of the work, what components were replaced?
What brand chain and components were used?
It’s got 70,000 got it from dealership it appeared to be taken care of,but there’s know record of any kind of maintenance.the old solenoid had flakes of definite aluminum,that’s why I changed oil.mobile/oem filter. I will double check everything and test new solenoids .Thanks I’ll post as soon as I get a chance next weekend to look at it
 

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If there was flakes of metal on the solenoids stop driving the car. One of your timing chain guides broke and the chain is slapping up against the bolt that holds the guide in place The chain has all kinds of slack in it and that is why you are having the cam position codes.

The engine is a zero interference engine if your car jumps timing there is a strong probability of it blowing the engine. Get the chain replaced along with all guides, tensioners and sprockets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If there was flakes of metal on the solenoids stop driving the car. One of your timing chain guides broke and the chain is slapping up against the bolt that holds the guide in place The chain has all kinds of slack in it and that is why you are having the cam position codes.

The engine is a zero interference engine if your car jumps timing there is a strong probability of it blowing the engine. Get the chain replaced along with all guides, tensioners and sprockets.
I agree the flakes are a bad sign something is broke is 70,000 normal for timing chain failure or guide’s and should I replace cam phaser’s
 

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Cloyes makes a good product and has a kit. I have a post where I listed all of the parts and what the GM prices are and also a couple of hits and what the parts are that are included.

There are several upgraded components that can be bought.

We are starting to see more failures and the failures are allover the board with the mileage. I believe the issue is age and the guides just becoming brittle and breaking.

Let me see if I can locate that list for ya.
 
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I recommend replacing all guides, chains, tensioners and sprockets including the phasers. The metal bits can end up getting stuck in the phasers that is why I recommend replacing them and also because where there is excessive play in the chain it ears down the teeth on the sprockets... Better safe then sorry.

I do recommend getting the upgraded guide bolt that goes through the timing chain cover. This bolt easily breaks off during use. I also recommend using the upgraded guide bolts that go through the guides. These are a higher strength bolt, the OE ones are extremely sensitive to being over torqued and may snap not when tightening them but during use of the vehicle. Couple of bucks more for peace of mind. If you like to work the vehicle and frequently operate the vehicle at RPM's > 5000 I recommend getting the upgraded chain tensioner. This tensioner is harder to compress, this lessens the amount of chain slap that can occur at high RPM

Optionally you can either delete the balance shafts or you can install neutral ones. The purpose to the balance shafts is to provide a smoother running engine at low RPM. These things rotate at twice the speed of the engine and they have bearings and put load on the rotating assembly. While their intended purpose is served they unbalance the engine high RPM. as an example 5 grams of weight 10mm from the center of a spinning shaft at 13,000 RPMs turns into 31.25 lbs. 5 grams is how much a nickle (currency, coin) weighs. Could you imagine a nickle moving at a speed that would make it weigh 31.25 lbs if it struck you? WOW!!! So depending on your driving style going a balance shaft delete or putting in neutral shafts might be worth doing.

There is no upgraded or stronger chain made. The ones that are available from reputable manufacturers are ore then capable if you use the upgraded components above... if you do not have a torque that does torque to yield (torque + angle) I recommend you buy one. If you do not have a torque wrench that does inch lbs I recommend you get one. Loctite if your friend so make sure you pit it on all bolts. clean the threads on all bolts that get reused. Wire brush does a good job for that. Save your knuckles and get a long handled gasket scraper to clean off the areas on the front of the block.

There is a cam holding tool you can use to keep the cams from spinning when you remove the phasers. The bolts are going to be a pain to remove and you will more then likely need to use a breaker bar to do it. DO NOT buy a cheap cam holding tool. cheap ones are made form soft metal and they are not made to the same tolerances and the cam is not going to be held as tightly. If you get a cheap one you will more then likely break it or the cam is going to spin. large wrenches will work as well but will need to be held in place when taking the bolts out.One less hand so that makes it harder to get the bolt taken out.

DO NOT reuse the old cam phaser bolts or the crank pulley/harmonic balancer bolt. These are torqu to yield and are designed so the threads stretch upon tighting them to give more contact area and that is ore friction to keep the bolts in place. Once those threads are stretched to get the same kind of friction the threads would have to stretch further possibly stripping them out.
 

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Where’s the best place to buy a complete kit I want the best replacement parts not cheap junk
I literally just went through this exact scenario at 64k miles a little over 2 months ago.
I'm happy to walk you through whatever you need as it's all really fresh.
 

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@Steveorama

Was the parts list I posted correct? and were the prices pretty close?
It was really helpful thanks. There is a few things I found out doing the project though to pass on.
1) I shopped around looking at Rockauto, Amazon, eBay, GM online part warehouses, etc. so having the part numbers was helpful. I ended up buying some parts from each depending on pricing (plus shipping) a lot of the seals, gaskets, and bolts I got on eBay from GM dealerships at the best prices.
2) Depending on the mileage and what's damaged, some parts will need to be replaced vs others. It's ultimately to each persons decision, but obviously since you're in there replace as much as you can. The balancing sprockets are a bear to remove and replace since you have to use a punch to hold the sprocket and it's hard to do this and use a torque wrench. If you don't have to replace these, you can leave them alone. Most of the other sprockets are easy to remove and replace or have to be removed anyway.
3) You will need an impact wrench with enough breakaway torque period. The balancer bolt and the cam phaser bolts aren't coming off with a breaker bar unless you're lucky IMO.
4) I also recommend a dab of black gasket maker on the 90 degree turns on the valve cover gasket as a just in case. I already had some in my toolbox and it also helps to hold the gasket from shifting and is usually a weak spot for oil leaks on every other engine I have ever worked on.

I ended up buying the Cloyes kits off Amazon courtesy of Prime.
Cloyes 9-4201SX Timing Chain - $84 (This kit does not include sprockets, but the only sprocket you need is the outer crank sprocket anyway and it rarely is damaged. If you need it, the "S" kit is about $20 more, but you may be able to find the sprocket for less by itself. You will not use the cam sprockets with this kit regardless)

Cloyes 9-4202S Balance Shaft Kit - $86 (This includes the sprockets, if yours are fine then buy the "SX" kit without the sprockets and save about $10. If you have a 2.0 you won't use the inner crank sprocket with this kit anyway)

Dorman 917-954 Timing Chain Guide Bolt - $10 (Go ahead and buy this even if your bolt isn't sheared, it replaces a part known to fail. If yours did fail you will need this instead of drilling the bolt out and tapping.)

All of the seals and gaskets I got on eBay from various sellers using the cart feature. Most were GM dealership part departments.
24435052 Timing Cover Gasket $19
11589123 Harmonic Balancer Bolt $5
12584041 Front Crank Seal $8
11588844 Cam Phaser Bolts $6 (for 2)
12609291 Valve Cover Gasket $20

All with Free Shipping (sales tax of course added)

I did purchase the OTTP replacement guide bolts as mine were damaged from the chain after the guide failed and I did not want to reuse them. Since I used the Dorman part I only needed 2 of the 3 though. I also picked up the rest of the misc. guide bolts from the hardware store and just matched the specs. I probably could of reused them, but it was a minimal cost and I just brought one and matched it for size, thread, and hardness.

I did not replace the cam phasers, the WP sprocket, or the inner and outer crank sprocket. I inspected them thoroughly and they showed no sign of excessive wear or damage on my 64k mile car. Obviously that's a risk I chose to take and to each their own, I average about 2k miles per year and was a risk I felt comfortable with. FWIW, ZZP also states on their website when viewing their Cloyes timing kit that they do not include sprockets as quote "Note: We do not include the Cloyes gears because we have found multiple issues with them over the years. Re-use all of the stock gears from your OE timing set, we have never found issue with them or seen wear over the thousands of Ecotec timing sets we've done." and "Fits: 2.0, 2.2, 2.4 liter Ecotec engines (except the balance shaft timing gear/sprocket). 2.0 cars will re-use their crank sprocket."

I also had just replaced the VVT solenoids and WP just before the timing chain job so I didn't replace those with this. I replaced the belts while I was there and also added the coolant air bleeders since I had pulled the hoses and radiator anyway. You will need a couple various tools too like torque wrenches (one in foot and inch pounds), a torque angle gauge, an impact with plenty of breakaway torque, 24 mm wrench to hold the cams, and various sockets and adapters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I recommend replacing all guides, chains, tensioners and sprockets including the phasers. The metal bits can end up getting stuck in the phasers that is why I recommend replacing them and also because where there is excessive play in the chain it ears down the teeth on the sprockets... Better safe then sorry.

I do recommend getting the upgraded guide bolt that goes through the timing chain cover. This bolt easily breaks off during use. I also recommend using the upgraded guide bolts that go through the guides. These are a higher strength bolt, the OE ones are extremely sensitive to being over torqued and may snap not when tightening them but during use of the vehicle. Couple of bucks more for peace of mind. If you like to work the vehicle and frequently operate the vehicle at RPM's > 5000 I recommend getting the upgraded chain tensioner. This tensioner is harder to compress, this lessens the amount of chain slap that can occur at high RPM

Optionally you can either delete the balance shafts or you can install neutral ones. The purpose to the balance shafts is to provide a smoother running engine at low RPM. These things rotate at twice the speed of the engine and they have bearings and put load on the rotating assembly. While their intended purpose is served they unbalance the engine high RPM. as an example 5 grams of weight 10mm from the center of a spinning shaft at 13,000 RPMs turns into 31.25 lbs. 5 grams is how much a nickle (currency, coin) weighs. Could you imagine a nickle moving at a speed that would make it weigh 31.25 lbs if it struck you? WOW!!! So depending on your driving style going a balance shaft delete or putting in neutral shafts might be worth doing.

There is no upgraded or stronger chain made. The ones that are available from reputable manufacturers are ore then capable if you use the upgraded components above... if you do not have a torque that does torque to yield (torque + angle) I recommend you buy one. If you do not have a torque wrench that does inch lbs I recommend you get one. Loctite if your friend so make sure you pit it on all bolts. clean the threads on all bolts that get reused. Wire brush does a good job for that. Save your knuckles and get a long handled gasket scraper to clean off the areas on the front of the block.

There is a cam holding tool you can use to keep the cams from spinning when you remove the phasers. The bolts are going to be a pain to remove and you will more then likely need to use a breaker bar to do it. DO NOT buy a cheap cam holding tool. cheap ones are made form soft metal and they are not made to the same tolerances and the cam is not going to be held as tightly. If you get a cheap one you will more then likely break it or the cam is going to spin. large wrenches will work as well but will need to be held in place when taking the bolts out.One less hand so that makes it harder to get the bolt taken out.

DO NOT reuse the old cam phaser bolts or the crank pulley/harmonic balancer bolt. These are torqu to yield and are designed so the threads stretch upon tighting them to give more contact area and that is ore friction to keep the bolts in place. Once those threads are stretched to get the same kind of friction the threads would have to stretch further possibly stripping them out.
Info on balance shaft delete or neutral shaft
 

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Info on balance shaft delete or neutral shaft
ZZP sells the neutral balance shafts for $300
 

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You can delete the shafts all together but you will need to send your shafts in to have them machined to become essentially idlers. You also need plugs for the shaft holes in the block so oil will get routed properly to the balance shaft chain tensioner.

There is a company that put together an electric water pump conversion for the LE5 and LNF. It replaces the factory pump so the balance shafts and chain can be deleted all together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ZZP sells the neutral balance shafts for $300
Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I literally just went through this exact scenario at 64k miles a little over 2 months ago.
I'm happy to walk you through whatever you need as it's all really fresh.
Timing chain tensioner upgrade?? Can’t find it
 

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Timing chain tensioner upgrade?? Can’t find it
I ordered one of those “upgraded” ones from OTTP.
My Cloyes came with one and I compared both with the OEM, opened them up and all that.
I am not convinced it was upgraded at all. I am no expert but after another users experience here with that vendor I wouldn’t recommend them.
I do believe PAW offers one and him I would trust.
 

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The upgraded tensioner will reduce/eliminate chain slap that can occur at high RPM. The stock tensioner is not all that strong and when the engine is at high RPM the chain will get slack in it because the tensioner is not able to keep the chain taught. This will happen at lower RPM if you have upgraded valve springs.
 
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