Pontiac Solstice Forum banner

41 - 60 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Partially correct. The difference between master and valet key is hardware, and is not dependent on the order the keys are learned.

incorrect. There is 0 difference between a physical valet key and a normal key other then what it can unlock. The transponder pellet inside functions identically.

This is not a debate you want to get into, I helped design transponder bypass modules made by Trilogics (XPressKit now owned by DEI) and also idata link (Compustar). I have installed 10's of thousands of remote starters and I have most main stream vehicles wiring that is used to start the vehicle memorized, location and color. These are the module names for a couple of manufacturers that handle the transponder (immobilizer) TDM (GM), SKIM (Chrysler), PATS (Ford) IA or IKT, VSA (Honda), ECU (Toyota). I am now 45 years old I retired about 4 years ago.. I worked in the automotive electronics and electrical field since I was 18 years old. before that I was active duty Army for 2 years and before that I messed around installing audio systems and other electronics into peoples cars, since I was about 14 years old.

When transponders first started to show their ugly head (1996) Ford Expedition I believe was the first, could be the first domestic vehicle, it was the first vehicle that I saw with a transponder. They started taking off in popularity in 2000. I figured out how to bypass the system in 1996 by using copper wire and a relay. wrap the wire around the handle of the key 13 times and then wrap the wire around the front of the key cylinder 7 times. This is something that is now manufactured and provides a nice black plastic box to put a key into and gets stuck up under the dashboard, it is called a 556U. And yes back then that was how the system got bypassed, we would take a key from the customer that they would not get back. The key would be up under the dashboard. The plastic piece that the key got inserted into would get popped off and under it is where the wire needed to get coiled. The 2 ends of the copper wire got connected to pins 30 and 87 on the relay. pin 85 went to a constant wire and pin 86 went to the negative activation output from the remote starter. Back then if the system could read the key it would keep the vehicles computers awake even tho the key sense and the ignitions were in the off position. This was a parasitic draw and would kill the battery. A relay MUST be used.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,327 Posts
Electronically a valet key and a master key are the same. there is not a thing different about them electrically. and what you are showing for directions is one of the 3 method that can be used to program keys. the method you are showing is only to relearn all keys and not to add a key.

If you look up ADDING a key you will see a completely different set of instructions and also the word "valet" to describe how the key gets stored in the theft deterrent module.

Here are the 3 ways to program the keys courtesy of GM.
I believe that those documents only reinforce what I have been telling you.

Transponder2 states:
  • A total of 10 master keys or valet keys may be programmed to a single vehicle.
This specifically says that the first key programmed is not the only master key. Having said that, if the programming procedure is the same for master and valet keys, the key itself must be different.

There may well be transponder keys and theft deterrent modules that operate the way you are describing, but we are specifically concerned with the system used in the Kappa, and it does not.
 

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 ·
You are not reading what I have posted.

If you have a key for your vehicle and you go to the locksmith to get a duplicate made do you think the locksmith is going to do either the 10 minute relearn of all of the keys (if they have the tool to do it) or do you think they are going to do the 30 minute relearn of all of the keys. or do you think they are going to do the 30 second method which is not a relearn it is an add a key?? I am betting that the last method is going to be used. If that last method is used no matter what color, shape or style the key is the cars computer is going to program that key as a "valet" key. A valet key is not able to get the car into a relearn or into an add a key programming mode. electronically the key is considered a "valet" key even tho the key may very well look like a normal key.

An actual valet key if there was one for our vehicles would have a gray handle, this valet key does not automatically get programmed to the cars computer as a valet key just because it's handle color is gray. It is up to the person programming the key to the car that is going to dictate whether or not the car stores the transponder code as a "valet" key. If a relearn is done and the key is programmed using either the 10 minute or the 30 minute the key is going to be coded to the vehicle as a master key even tho it has a gray handle. If the key is programmed using the 30 second method then the key is going to be considered a valet key and that key will not have the ability to enter into relearn or add programming modes.

The physical aspects of a valet key mean that it only has the ability to mechanically unlock the drivers door and mechanically be able to turn the key cylinder to start the car. The term valet key when used to describe the key that is programmed to the car has ZERO connection to the keys physical characteristics. the term valet key when used in programming simply means a key that does not have the authority or permissions to have the computer enter into the relearn or add programming modes. It is not able to be used to program a duplicate key to the vehicle.

The correct way of using this system is there really is only a need to have a single master key. because that one master key has the ability to program all of the rest of the keys. If the master gets lost then a new key would have to be cut so the computer can be told to enter the relearn mode. A key that has the ability to turn the ignition and has not been coded to the vehicle at all only has the ability to have the computer enter into the relearn mode. Once the new key has been coded to the car then the relearn should be exited and each additional key should be "added" using the 30 second method. Ideally the master key would not be used and would be stored in your house. Only keys that do not have the ability to enter the car into a relearn or add mode would be used. This reduces the potential of someone grabbing your keys for some reason making a copy of it and then programming it. Not that this would really happen because they already have your keys they can just take the vehicle at that point.

This is the way the system is designed to be used. It was not hard coded that only a single master can exist. I do not know what the intention was when making the system in this manner. It could have been made this way for only the purpose of making it easier for a tech to program keys to the car.

A physical valet key has the exact same electronics in it as a normal key. The transponder pellet and the challenge processor in both types of keys are of identical design. the car doesn't see one key different then another when programming them. The cars computer has no clue if the key you are wanting to program is a physical valet key or not. the only thing that controls if the key is considered a valet key to the cars computer is the method in which the key was programmed to the vehicle.

This is the easiest way I can come up with to explain this. If the programing is done properly there should be only a single master key and that master key would hold the #1 position in the list of keys that has been programmed to the vehicle. This is why I stated that the first key programmed to the car would be needed to get the car to enter into either a relearn or an add mode. A lot of out vehicles have changed hands several times. No one is going to know for sure if a key has been replaced and how that key was programmed to the car. This makes my statement a correct statement using that as a possibility that could have happened. Using the first key that was programmed to get the vehicle into whatever programming mode you want is guaranteed to work 100% of the time. using any other key might not work depending on how the other key as programmed to the vehicle. The chances of success with another key just got reduced to 50%. My personally I would rather go for the sure fire thing, that 100%.

When relearning the keys or when the first master key is known using a scribe and making a small mark somewhere on the key to identify it as the master is not to difficult to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
alright 'boys', enough huffing and puffing; lets sit down in a neutral territory and share a beverage of your choice... i'll buy

☕🥤🍺🍷🥃

Bill
Good idea to calm down the animus in the topic, though I do like reading technical discussions, even if there's some disagreement. There's always knowledge to be gotten from either side. Often times both are trying to convey the same thing but from different perspectives...
 

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I don't really give a crap anymore. I know I am 100% right in this. It is just like I was wrong about the RCDLR module. Didn't you just get a reply in another thread about a person having the remotes fail and not the TPMS? But you said I was wrong that it couldn't happen that way that both would fail if it was a programming problem with the RCDLR. I guess I am still wrong in that case as well huh?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,327 Posts
This morning I was able to verify that any working key will allow the teaching of new keys to a Kappa, as I stated in post #20.

Background: When I obtained my RL it came with only one key, and I elected to purchase switchblade-style keys for it. I bought keys for it and for my NA that I had cut at my local locksmith and taught to the car using the key that came with the car. Since I did not know if that key was the one used for the TDM re-learn I could not make any statements about why it was able to teach new keys.

This morning I purchased a new key and, as expected, it would not power the car. I used the second-generation switchblade key to teach it to the car, and it is now a fully-functional key, proving that (for my car, at least) any key that will power the car will also allow teaching of a new key.

There is one caveat: If you have a grey-headed valet key it is not supposed to be usable to teach a new key. That said, the grey-headed keys are not supposed to be usable with the Kappa anyway, so you probably don't even have to worry about having one.

Capture.JPG
 
  • Like
Reactions: agent008

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #49 ·
And what method was used to program the key to the car?
 
  • Like
Reactions: agent008

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,327 Posts
And what method was used to program the key to the car?
The "Adding Keys" procedure: Insert the master key (my second-generation switchblade key in this case), power the car without starting, turn off, insert the new key, power the car, and wait for the security light to go out (about 5 seconds in my case).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,689 Posts

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #55 ·
I guess I'mma have to start working on putting the software togethe so it's easy to get installed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: agent008 and shabby

·
Registered
2008 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Joined
·
1,690 Posts
Discussion Starter · #56 ·
just so you know, I am not going to make anything for this. and you all know my reason why and you know who to thank for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,689 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
This does look good. I am having a hard time finding a compatible key in Brazil. My best bet is (again) a key for the 2009 Captiva which I bought as a V6 engine donor. (also known as a Gen II Saturn Vue). Or, for the '08-'12 Chevy Malibu.

Here's the fob these cars use:

112563


Captiva/Vue doesn't have the trunk button, Malibu does.
I found the model below, fits the Captiva, has trunk button and no remote start button. Looks reasonable but @shabby 's choice is much nicer.
112564

@shabby , to make your new keyfob perfect, all you're missing is the Pontiac (or Saturn) logo. I can't seem to find either on AliExpress.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,327 Posts
You can see the picture of mine in post #48. @shabby 's is definitely more elegant looking.
The only logo I have seen on any of them is GM, never a division.
 
  • Like
Reactions: agent008
41 - 60 of 99 Posts
Top