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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This thread is to capture some of the ideas about how to move forward and grow. This thread is not in opposition to JRinKY’s 2012 thread seeking those to step up to keep the dream alive. I applaud that effort.

I personally was moved by many posts. Lowlife had an excellent post about the history of the Fiero folks. I saw many parallels to the kappa community. Rob had some amazing analysis that really couldn’t be ignored. Biohazard pulled out the “yearly” card that I thought I would never consider, yet the location and the logic was inescapable.

So, I am throwing out this thread for that discussion. Keep in mind that I have many personal biases. I love twisties, hate going to the same place and loath having non-kappa cars attend an event. Still, it ain’t about me, it is about the community.
 

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First - I want to thank John (JRinKY) for his passion for the National Meet. He obviously cares deeply about this topic and his concern for the continuation of a national rally/meet is apparent.

I am in no way opposed to a proposal for a meet in Asheville. Thats slightly north of my initial suggestion which was Greenville, SC. So I am absolutely fine with that location.

I took a look at the numbers for the event in Austin. I am sure those numbers will grow... But if my math is correct...I count just over 100 vehicles attending from the latest count posted on the event website. Add another 50 conservatively to 100 being generous showing up between now and then you are some where between 150 to 200 vehicles. Not exactly a fair comparison to a Harley Event or any of the other comparisons I was trying to draw with my posts on Johns thread. Those events draw thousands of owners. Heck at one bar alone you could have 200 bikes parked out front and I remember a few bars in Daytona that had more than that. Iron Horse Saloon knows how to throw a party... :lol:

The other difference is Harley is a product that is still being made. The Kappa platform is dead. And with each year that passes and every car that is totalled that is one less member that can participate.

This fact alone is the only reason why I suggested the thought of including other Pontiacs and Saturns. I was not suggesting changing it to a Pontiac Saturn event but simply open the door for them to attend with a simple statement that all Pontiac and Saturn owners were welcome to attend.

I submit that you would have to model a national event after what Fiero Owners have done. They have already walked in the same shoes we are walking in.

I whole heartedly agree that if there is going to be a national event the majority rules the day and that the needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few or one if this is ever going to be successful.

One last thing... my post on John's thread was a suggestion. A destination that had some merit. Based on several news stories I have read regarding the new Pontiac Museum, I thought the mayor and his tourism board might be interested in having us come to their city for our event and may be willing to help us organize it. Obviously its a forum and I was hoping to hear what others thought of the idea.

If there is no interest from the community, I am fine with that too. :thumbs:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I seriously want to see what you hear from Pontiac, Il. If there was ever going to be an annual kappa event, that would be the place. Not sure about roads given IHawk's input, but hey. No one can argue the pedigree of the location.
 

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Here my personal two cents on issues that I’ve seen going around the forums these past few weeks. I want to elaborate on the National Vs Regional Idea and the Multi brand meets.

First I’d like to say how much I enjoy the current set up for the Nationals. Personally, the fun part about these events is travelling all over the Map each year to a different location, seeing good friends, making new friends and discovering places I've never been to before.

I'm sort of new to the Kappa community but I'm no way new to the car scene.

I live in Quebec, Canada. I've travelled to Canton, Ohio (620Mi) for my First Kappa Nationals, I'm booked and ready to travel to the Nationals in Texas (1977mi one way) later this year and hell I'm already looking forward to 2012 and sort of crossing my fingers for a west coast location! Hell I’d love to go to Vegas or Colorado even though they’ve been done before. How many people are still around from those times 40%? Out of those how many really don’t want to go back? I’m sure the percentage is minimal.

I was and still am an active member in the Fiero community, I've travelled to Pontiac Michigan (572mi) for the 25th anniversary show, I've travelled to Daytona Beach, FL (1422mi) for the massive Fiero Show and I plan on going to Indianapolis (892mi) for the 30th. When I purchased one of my cars I flew down and drove back from Portland, OR (2958mi) in 5 days for the experience.

I think if you set up an event with the current formula, wherever it is, if there is interest people will do their best to attend. Granted it’s not always easy to get the time off work and sometimes the family makes traveling a little harder. Not everyone wants to take 2 weeks off like we are doing but in the end you will always get to please most people with the current formula. You can’t always please everyone every year, one way or another it’s always going to be to far for someone and in someone else’s back yard.

I think we can manage to keep the current 1 National formula and still have other great meets. What’s stopping a Kappa club in a different region to hold a meet and open it up to everyone? We could all continue to support the big national meet while continuing to create other great but smaller Kappa events throughout the year.

I’m going to Texas this year, but I will still attend Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto events. I would even consider more regional eastern USA events and I’d love to attend for one of the events for T2TR with our friends in Ohio!

I think we should all continue to support one big National meet a year so the people who want to go and attend can go.. if you don't want to drive 1500Mi like some people are about to do then just don't go. I’m not trying to be mean but there are so many meets every year why try to take apart the huge National where we are +-200 cars?

As for the attendance, IMO It must and has to stay a Kappa Only event. I personally am not interested in Multi-brand meets. If I travel 2000mi to go to a meet I want to see and meet people that drive what I drive. I attended the Daytona Florida Fiero meet once, it was nice, but the whole multi brand thing didn’t sit well with me and I never went back. If a Mixed National or Regional would be proposed I do not think I would be interested in participating. When that idea came up last year at the end of the Nationals I was very disappointed, I was really happy to see that there was going to be a National Event in SC (NC?) but the multi brand thing took the whole special part of the meet apart. I like seeing a city that is overrun by Solstice and Sky’s! I like seeing a 50 Kappa Convoy, If I want a multi brand meet I’ll just go to Carlisle instead but that’s not my type of event.

I’m not sure why this seems to be a big fuss every year, what’s so bad with the way things are now?
 

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Maybe there is room for three meets each year. A national, and two regionals.

Have a roaming National each year in a different location, and a fixed location for regionals, as an example one in Ashville, NC, and one in San Francisco, CA.

The rationale for the national meet is sound, as was the discussions for regional meets, particularly if they are in a fixed location. Having vendors is always nice, and the two fixed locations will accommodate the localish vendors who can't make the long trip across country. The regional events will be at a fixed site with a fixed date allowing people to make plans well in advance. It will also allow people to cut down on the amount of work it takes to create the meet, and to run it. More people will be able to go, and to help.

Combine it with a mod meet like being held in Southern MD soon, and it will attract even more.

Also, I am apparently one of the 5% mentioned in the other thread. I will help, and contribute time and money to the event.

Jim :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Allow me to blue sky again. Just Mike mentioned a Cannon Ball as a national idea and I note that a lot of groups do a run to the nationals. I then remembered that Kim and I did route 66 back from OK with a stop in Pontiac.... Soooooo... Let's say we have Pontiac, Il as the final destination and focus on the routes to get there as the run of sorts. The final would be the last few days but the adventures were how the groups got there. Folks could pitch in each year to come up with the best migration routes from their neck of the woods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Allow me to blue sky again. Just Mike mentioned a Cannon Ball as a national idea and I note that a lot of groups do a run to the nationals. I then remembered that Kim and I did route 66 back from OK with a stop in Pontiac.... Soooooo... Let's say we have Pontiac, Il as the final destination and focus on the routes to get there as the run of sorts. The final would be the last few days but the adventures were how the groups got there. Folks could pitch in each year to come up with the best migration routes from their neck of the woods.
If someone wanted to migrate to the Pontiac nest on a longer route (or something outside of their normal path), they would be able to see all of he migration paths and join a group whereever convenient to explore new spaces.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
For example, the MKC group is quite large and may choose a certain route down to Pontiac (I would think the Dixie Highway would be cool). The NEO group may come across a diiferent route through the Amish sections of central Ohio. The west may come through the traditional 66. Etc etc. All post their "in route" and if you want to try something different, you find the hook up point and come in with those folks.
 

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I can tell from your accent you are from Southern Canada :lol: - Just kidding... Some South Park Humor to lighten the mood here.


What’s stopping a Kappa club in a different region to hold a meet and open it up to everyone?
The answer is nothing. All regional and local events (as far as I can tell) are always open to whoever wishes to attend no matter where they are from. Correct me if I am wrong on that.


I’m not trying to be mean but there are so many meets every year why try to take apart the huge National where we are +-200 cars?
+- 200 cars is not my definition of a "HUGE" event. Might be to some but it seems rather small to me.

Its too bad GM closed the Wilmington Plant... the MECCA events were awesome. To me, thats the feel any National event should have. Just my two cents.
 

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I seriously want to see what you hear from Pontiac, Il. If there was ever going to be an annual kappa event, that would be the place. Not sure about roads given IHawk's input, but hey. No one can argue the pedigree of the location.
Anything I hear from Pontiac, IL will be posted right here.
 

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Howwee, your talkin' to yourself again.

The problem with Pontiac, Illinois as a destination is that it isn't large enough to support an influx of 200 cars / 300 people. If you include Bloomington as part of the destination, maybe. I'd also be curious to what the Pontiac Chamber of Commerce might reply.

Beware of comparisons to the Fiero enthusiasts. We are a very small enthusiast group compared to the Fiero crowd. (500,000 Fieros produced vs 65,000 Solstices and 35000 Skys)
 

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Maybe there is room for three meets each year. A national, and two regionals.
There are already annual regional and local events in place. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are open to anyone who wishes to attend. All you have to do is look right here on this forum to find out about them.

Joe's Southern MD event is an example of a very successfull regional event that happens at least once a year. I can think of many others including events held by WISOLS and RLHAMMON and his group in Michigan just to name some others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Howwee, your talkin' to yourself again.

The problem with Pontiac, Illinois as a destination is that it isn't large enough to support an influx of 200 cars / 300 people. If you include Bloomington as part of the destination, maybe. I'd also be curious to what the Pontiac Chamber of Commerce might reply.

Beware of comparisons to the Fiero enthusiasts. We are a very small enthusiast group compared to the Fiero crowd. (500,000 Fieros produced vs 65,000 Solstices and 35000 Skys)
Haha... Thanks for the gut check Dave. Still blue skying. Trying to push the envelope a bit. Then again, I know Normal, Il quite well. My only link to claiming to having an attachment to anything Normal. Better than most.

To push the envelope again, if we have a central Mecca (migration point) in Pontiac and have regions figure out the annual flight paths with whatever mix of roads and stops are an adventure on the flight there, don't
we cover all of the bases?
 

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Maybe there is room for three meets each year. A national, and two regionals.

Have a roaming National each year in a different location, and a fixed location for regionals, as an example one in Ashville, NC, and one in San Francisco, CA.

The rationale for the national meet is sound, as was the discussions for regional meets, particularly if they are in a fixed location. Having vendors is always nice, and the two fixed locations will accommodate the localish vendors who can't make the long trip across country. The regional events will be at a fixed site with a fixed date allowing people to make plans well in advance. It will also allow people to cut down on the amount of work it takes to create the meet, and to run it. More people will be able to go, and to help.

Combine it with a mod meet like being held in Southern MD soon, and it will attract even more.

Also, I am apparently one of the 5% mentioned in the other thread. I will help, and contribute time and money to the event.

Jim :cool:
There was up until last year a Southeastern regional event every year but last years didn't materialize due largely I believe due to the bad economic situation. Lots of people cut back last year. I know that there is a regional event in Canada this year and I believe there is one out west this year also.

I do like the idea of both East Coast and West Coast Regionals and even Northern Regionals for or Canadian friends but I think the location of the regionals should float but be on the same approximate date every year.

Maybe an East Coast Regional event in the fall and a West Coast event in the Spring or vice-versa. The floating location would allow for say the North East to hold the regionals one year and the South East to hold it the next year then it would rotate back to the North East the following year. This would allow for say a regional event in some place like say Cooperstown and the next year in the mountains of Georgia or along the Gulf Coast somewhere. The same could be done on the West Coast. Then people could would have a choice that at least once every year of a regional event that would be closer to them.

The floating National Event format that we currently have I really like as some have said it gives you choices of seeing different places and meeting people that you may not otherwise have a chance to meet.

But I am just one voice and I would go along with what ever the majority decides is best for the entire community as a whole.
 

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There are already annual regional and local events in place. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are open to anyone who wishes to attend. All you have to do is look right here on this forum to find out about them.

Joe's Southern MD event is an example of a very successfull regional event that happens at least once a year. I can think of many others including events held by WISOLS and RLHAMMON and his group in Michigan just to name some others.
You could look at it like that, but they are all pretty small regional events that do not draw many vendors. I am talking about much larger regional events like a national, but one for each side of the country. I am quite confident in saying that any event more than 1000 miles away is simply too far for 90% of the Kappa owners.

Think about it, if THE current national event only get's 200 cars out of a potential 10,000 (number of forum members from the three major Kappa forums to draw from), then distance is one of the biggest factors. Tow regionals, held in the same place every year could easily draw a lot more than 200 cars. The 50+ going to the mod meet is a perfect example. Plus two vendors will be there.

Combine a mod meet with several vendors, a car show, and a couple fun runs, and you have a BIG draw.

I may not be experienced in car rally's, but I am very experienced in motorcycle rally's of a similar nature. The basics are the same.

Jim :cool:
 

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OK, maybe I'm just being dense tonight, but how does one differentiate between a local event, regional event, and a national event? If attendees come from more than 1 state does that mean it's a regional event? Does the presence or absence of vendors affect the designation?

Would someone with a better feel for this attempt to define the differences?
 

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You could look at it like that, but they are all pretty small regional events that do not draw many vendors. I am talking about much larger regional events like a national, but one for each side of the country. I am quite confident in saying that any event more than 1000 miles away is simply too far for 90% of the Kappa owners.
I think your idea for the regional event would simply dilute the amount of people who would attend a true national event.

As stated by Bio Hasard, and as I was trying to say, there are tons of meets happening all over the map, nothing is stopping people for attending those meets. Let's say you don't want to go to Texas, we'll nothing is stopping you from going to an event in NY if you feel that it's closer and easier for you.

Seeing how "strong" the forums are since our cars died, I do not think the community can support 1 National and 2 regional’s a year.. all that we will get from that are 3 meetings with maybe 50-80 cars a pop instead of a giant 200 car party. Sure 200 is nothing compared to the Harley meets, but now you are comparing apples and oranges.

Oh and to Bio Hasard, I also attended Mecca III, I forgot to list it in my previous response, you are right, and those meets were regional worthy even though they were mostly attended by people in nearby states.
 

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There was up until last year a Southeastern regional event every year but last years didn't materialize due largely I believe due to the bad economic situation. Lots of people cut back last year. I know that there is a regional event in Canada this year and I believe there is one out west this year also.

One reason that the GA Southeastern Meet did not materialize was that the NASSM was in Ohio.... and the numbers choose to go to a nationals instead of a regional......The reason that the KY and Myrtle Beach Southeastern meets did so well was that the NASSM was held in Las Vegas and Denver.....
 

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Thanks for starting this thread Howie. Whether there should be a National deserves its own thread, one where more of the community is more likely to find and be able to contribute to the discussion.

Would an annual event similar in scale to Sturgis or Daytona be a good thing ? Of course it would. Is it a realistic dream ? Probably not. As Dave stated, there were five times as many Fieros produced as Kappas. Harley-Davidson sells almost twice the total Kappa production every year.

It may be counter-intuitive, but attendance a major meets is likely to increase as the platform ages. Right now there is a large percentage of owners that are not enthusiasts, and many just cannot understand why anyone would want to hang out with someone simply because they happen to drive the same car. As the cars become more difficult to own, the enthusiast percentage will increase, and meet attendance will likely increase as a way for owners to keep the contacts they need to keep their cars running.

Also, as desirable as a major fixed event may be, such an event cannot be wished into existance, it has to grow. And it has to start with a group of people that put on an event that people want to attend. Then they have to repeat the next year with another event that people want to attend again. And so on, until the event becomes a must-attend institution.

I personally like the roving National formula. It makes it possible for every part of the country to have a shot at a "local" National, and keeps the event fresh with new possibilities every year. Its downsides are that every National is going to be prohibitively distant from someone, and it requires that groups from all over the country be willing to put forth the effort required to host. Lack of such a group from some area means that that area will not get a local National. That may not sound fair, but it is a fact of life, and there isn't much that can be done about it short of aving a professional National Meet Team to execute the events. And that isn't going to happen.

Right now, Asheville is the only proposal that has been made for 2012, and the clock is running on that group's ability to lock down a venue. At some point we have to decide to make a choice for 2012 and we have to decide whether Asheville is that choice. At that point we would have to commit to Asheville as the one National, and put off comments about a different formula until it is time to talk about 2013. Anything else would be profoundly unfair to the Asheville team.
 

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DaveOC : OK, maybe I'm just being dense tonight, but how does one differentiate between a local event, regional event, and a national event? If attendees come from more than 1 state does that mean it's a regional event? Does the presence or absence of vendors affect the designation?

Would someone with a better feel for this attempt to define the differences?
My definitions:

A local event is a gathering of owners for whatever purpose is stated for the event: touring, driving, mods, show, etc. It may last one day or a weekend, but probably not longer, although it could.

A Regional or National event is generally 3 days or more, and will include vendors and, usually, multiple events. Whether Regional or National is a matter of intended scope, with a National targeted (currently) at 200+ cars, and a regional at half of that.
 
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