Pontiac Solstice Forum banner

21 - 40 of 149 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
250º isn't damage-causingly hot. But, it's pushing it. I wouldn't drive it.

All indications - as seen from the other side of the InterTubes (ie, we're not there so we're all guessing, albeit mostly-educated guessing) - are that there's still air in the system.

I suspect a failing water pump because of the initial problem: lost coolant. BUT, it doesn't sound like the thing is really dead as of yet, and it's working well enough for the moment. I doubt the pump is causing the immediate issue.

@TomatoSoup does the car need to be running (or at least above thermostat temp) when squishing the hose? There's no heater core valve, but there's still a thermostat. (Also, I just learned that there's no heater core valve. Thanks!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
250º isn't damage-causingly hot. But, it's pushing it. I wouldn't drive it.

All indications - as seen from the other side of the InterTubes (ie, we're not there so we're all guessing, albeit mostly-educated guessing) - are that there's still air in the system.

I suspect a failing water pump because of the initial problem: lost coolant. BUT, it doesn't sound like the thing is really dead as of yet, and it's working well enough for the moment. I doubt the pump is causing the immediate issue.

@TomatoSoup does the car need to be running (or at least above thermostat temp) when squishing the hose? There's no heater core valve, but there's still a thermostat. (Also, I just learned that there's no heater core valve. Thanks!)
The coolant was low when I bought it (a week ago), and the car had been sitting for a year, the light would just come on once in a while when I was on a hill. I drove it for about 200-300 miles with no issues at all, no smoke, nothing over 195 degrees. I'll continue to try and burp it and if it goes over 230 on the way home, I'll pull over and have it towed.

With the vacuum system, do I have to drain the system first in order to not have air in the lines or will it literally pull the bubbles out?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
It'll pull the bubbles out. It's basically a Venturi with some valves and fittings.

Basically, it goes like this:

1. Insert the tool into the top of the reservoir in place of the cap. They come with a set of rubber cone-shaped fittings, one of which should fit nicely in place of the reservoir cap. There'll be a knob to turn to tighten the tool-reservoir interface. Don't overtighten it.
2. Might have to cap off the overflow outlet.
3. Connect your air compressor to the tool. (I hope you already have a compressor. If not, get the next thing larger than a pancake compressor at Big Box Store, figure about $130.) (Or borrow your neighbor's compressor and return it Real Soon Now.)
4. Turn on the air. It'll pull a vacuum on the system. Give it a few minutes for the reading on the gauge attached to the tool to stabilize.
5. Turn off the valve on the tool, disconnect air. Wait ~10-20 minutes to make sure vacuum is stable. If it's not, you have a leak somewhere. Could be in the tool-to-reservoir interface, or elsewhere in the system. If there is a leak, you may likely see coolant coming out somewhere. If that happens, fix that leak before proceeding as the rest of this won't work without a stable vacuum.
6. Attach a hose to the tool, with the other end in a bucket (or jug) of coolant mix.
7. Open the valve on the tool. The vacuum will suck the coolant into the system until the vacuum is exhausted, at which point you know the system is full. Reinstall your reservoir cap and go enjoy the car.

If you run out of coolant in the container during the "sucking" phase (sorry), start over with more coolant in the container. This setup will not pull in more coolant than is required.

Having said all that: some cars can't be properly bled by this or other methods without the check valves. But, that is for some cars. I recommend installing them, but that takes time for shipping, etc. As an engineer, I find it disturbing that this works in some but not all cases. I prefer deterministic systems.

The reason this works is that air weighs less than coolant. Surface tension in the coolant allows the air bubbles (pockets or whatever) to exist. Applying vacuum sort of overrides that effect. (Physicists, please chime in here.) But, that assumes that there is a clear, uninterrupted circuit that the vacuum is applied to. Any blockages - like, say, a closed thermostat - impede the operation of the device.

I imagine that this has been a very frustrating experience. Although this is a tricky issue to fix, it rarely comes up. If the car was sitting for a year, there will be some issues. That said, we have a number of cars running around with way more miles. One guy at Blackhawk last year had something like 200k miles. My GXP just hit 112k. Runs like a top. (After a water pump, high pressure fuel pump, two wheel bearings, 7 hub bolts, and a bunch of mod work.) Stick with it.

And keep an eye on the coolant level once this is fixed.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,287 Posts
The coolant level is WAY too high in that video. The level should be at, or just above, the molding join half way up the container......
I agree. In fact, mine runs slightly below the joint.
.....Even if the blower isn't working - btw, that's a common problem with an easy fix that costs about $30 and takes half an hour - having the HVAC controls set to full heat and fan on should do the trick.........
Does this matter? There isn't a water valve in the system is there? I think that the heater core is a constant flow, and temperature regulation is by air mixing. Unless you are trying to pull heat out of the system using the HVAC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
I have an update, something has started to leak coolant (steady stream) on the right side (turbo side) of the engine. I don't have the energy to post the video right now so I'll do it in the morning. The image attached is from beneath the car. I can't tell exactly but it's in the general vacinity of the back of what I believe is the water pump.

What are the odds, cracked head pouring coolant out or bad water pump pouring coolant from the back of the water pump?

How do our water pump/ WP bearings fail? I was pretty sure the noise I've heard since I bought the car was a bearing (though I thought it was the belt tensioner) but it couldve been the water pump.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
Well, that's a lot of coolant. :( But, it could have come from spillage while working on the car, over-filling, a cracked radiator hose, a cracked radiator, a bad radiator hose clamp (I have a very long story about that one)... there are a lot of options.

If you had a UV dye kit sitting around, you could put some in the coolant, run it for a few minutes, and see exactly where the leak is. They may sound like snake oil, but they work incredibly well.

Failing that - everything would be a guess. If it ran fine for the past few hundred miles, I'd say that the head and gasket are most likely fine. Nothing you've posted indicates that the engine got hot enough to blow a gasket, much less crack the head.

But, I wouldn't put a ton of time and money into a water pump replacement - it is nontrivial on this motor - without knowing where the leak is. A shop would inject some dye and then see where it is coming out, because that's the most efficient way of determining the problem without unnecessarily tearing things apart and randomly replacing parts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,810 Posts
So some questions....have you added coolant in the last few weeks to it? Have you noticed any coolant on the ground before? If it IS your WP, it was a catastrophic failure judging by all that coolant. You had to have had some previous indicator that it was going...if it's the WP. Of course, you might have overheated the engine and warped the head and that could be doing this. But with that much coolant, I'd think you would have white exhaust or a bad miss.

So you said it hit 250.... How "well" do you know your car? Do you know when it's overheating? If you can hear the engine note change when it gets to 220 or so, then you would have known it was overheating.... As I posted on another thread...I'm VERY in-tune with my cars...always have been. That's why I made a great service writer..but hated it. I know when my car is getting hot (above 220). The engine note changes as does my exhaust note. And the power starts to lag a bit...it's not quite as responsive. When it hit 250, did it slowly increase to 250, or was it rapid (10 to 20 seconds...maybe 30)? If it was slow...chances are you killed it. With an air bubble, when it moves, the temp gauge will rapidly increase...without an airbubble, you would see: 190.......192.........194..........................196...................198,

With an airbubble you will get:
190.198.200.205.215.225......

If the later happened within seconds and went to 250 you're probably okay...but from my air bubble experience, if it was the first way....the damage might be worse then a WP.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
..205...215..305, in my case. Yay.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
It is absolutely leaking with loss of coolant now, it's not spillage. It slowly crept up to 250 and once the high temp light came on, i shut it off and let it sit. It seemed if i was on an incline it would shoot up rapidly. There is no smoke, no coolant in the oil, no changes in engine note or behavior.

It's a steady stream when hot/under pressure. I can't tell the exact location but it's coming from turbo side, in the front, directly behind what i think is the water pump. See this video

I will reiterate that this car had a funky bearing grinding type noise before that seems to be magically gone now. I'm wondering if the bearing is basically gone, leaking coolant through the weep hole (do we have that?) And now that the bearing has a constant stream of coolant coming out of it, it's lubed and not making the noise anymore?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
683 Posts
It is absolutely leaking with loss of coolant now, it's not spillage. It slowly crept up to 250 and once the high temp light came on, i shut it off and let it sit. It seemed if i was on an incline it would shoot up rapidly. There is no smoke, no coolant in the oil, no changes in engine note or behavior.

It's a steady stream when hot/under pressure. I can't tell the exact location but it's coming from turbo side, in the front, directly behind what i think is the water pump. See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ4TDbKZod0

I will reiterate that this car had a funky bearing grinding type noise before that seems to be magically gone now. I'm wondering if the bearing is basically gone, leaking coolant through the weep hole (do we have that?) And now that the bearing has a constant stream of coolant coming out of it, it's lubed and not making the noise anymore?
Yes, there is what amounts to a weep hole on the bottom side of the pump. It should be easy to tell if that is the problem. It could also be something simpler like a hose or O ring failure at the water pump which would leak onto the ground in the same general area. (front right side of engine.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Unless the crack in the block/head happens to v3e right above the water pump, it seems highly likely that it's oring/hose failure. I saw videos online that show an oring on the pipe coming from the back, does a new pump come with that oring?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,426 Posts
I'm still baffled at how a semi-enclosed system has this issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
the area circled in red is the weep hole in the bottom of the pump. If the coolant is coming from there, it is definitely the bearing.

Bill.
I don't see that hole in my video, what orientation would it be while installed on the engine?

It's dripping off of the drain plug for the water pump but I think the leak is higher up but I just can't see the exact source.

I ordered a water pump with orings, thermostat, and sprocket holder which should all be in tomorrow. Just gonna go ahead and pull it apart and if there's a crack in the block, I imagine I'll see it. Did anyone look closely at the video I posted? I can refill it, warm it up and take another video and try to get a better shot.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
683 Posts
I'm still baffled at how a semi-enclosed system has this issue.
The weep hole is between two sealed bearings. one on the water pump side to keep coolant from from leaking into the weep hole and one on the oil side of the pump to keep oil from leaking into the weep hole. one reason for having the weep hole between the two sealed bearings is to eliminate the possibility of coolant getting into the oil system or oil into the coolant system.

New water pump does not come with all the gaskets, O rings, and seals needed. Fel-Pro sells a complete kit for that for just a few bucks. see the photo for the part number.

Bill
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
You need this:

ACDelco 10-5045 Multi-Purpose Fluorescent Leak Detection Dye - 1 oz

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008I2VPC4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_sacwDbW02GDK7

And this:


Interdynamics Certified A/C Pro UV Leak Detection Kit, UV Light with Glasses, 438

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003JOB594/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_RbcwDbXNQHSBC

Or just get the big kit, which is what I’ve used successfully to find oil and coolant leaks:

MASTERCOOL 53351-B Black Professional UV Leak Detector Kit

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IHJXHG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_QccwDbWFPSPZC

There are different types of dye for AC, coolant, oil and hydraulics.


This will tell you EXACTLY where the leak is. Could be the water pump, line going to/from the turbo, head gasket, head, block, something magically flowing from a hose or clamp, etc. Dye is the best and fastest way to make sure you’re replacing the right thing before spending an entire day and hundreds of dollars on a guess.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,426 Posts
The weep hole is between two sealed bearings. one on the water pump side to keep coolant from from leaking into the weep hole and one on the oil side of the pump to keep oil from leaking into the weep hole. one reason for having the weep hole between the two sealed bearings is to eliminate the possibility of coolant getting into the oil system or oil into the coolant system.

New water pump does not come with all the gaskets, O rings, and seals needed. Fel-Pro sells a complete kit for that for just a few bucks. see the photo for the part number.

Bill
I'm talking about air being trapped in a semi-enclosed cooling system by the act of adding coolant to an overflow tank.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,743 Posts
My Delco Professional pump came with the o-rings.

Also, for pump replacement, you’ll need the holding tool (unless you want to remove the entire front of the engine to reseat your balance shaft chain after you remove the pump):

OTC 6616 Water Pump Holding Tool... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C6P0NS?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

There is also a half-circle version of that tool. Do not get the half-circle (also called half moon) version. The full circle makes it a lot harder to drop a bolt behind the timing cover.

DDM has pretty good instructions for pump R&R:

http://www.ddmworks.com/assets/images/instructions/kappa/DDM-GM-12630084 Instructions GM Waterpump.pdf




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
21 - 40 of 149 Posts
Top