Well, you don't have to worry about everybody owning this car. It's not like the new Mustang where they're going to sell 100k+, they're only making around 20k per year so these are going to be very few and far between.

 

That is true.

 

With only 20K being produced the first year, and the number of dealers who will order them, I doubt I even pass another Sol on the road unless its at a planned meeting. Maybe in two or three years the number of Sols will get to the point where they are more common, but in western Pennsylvania, my Sol should be unique for quite a while.

 

The hydroformed sheet metal process that allows the Solsice to be produced at such a low cost can not be used for high volume production...

Kind of a forced way to limit the supply side of this new Hottie in the marketplace..

I think if GM can hold down the dealer gouging....(not that I think they can) they will have years of success with this new sportster.

I hope GM has a plan for performance engine aftermarket kits like superchargers...

 

Unique, maybe even scarce...

There's unique, then there's "we haven't seen one on the road" scarce.

Keep in mind that the second year of the Mustang in 1965, they sold 1/2 million of them, but they were still reasonably unique.

Currently, GM has planned for 20,000 units the first year with 2000 of those going to our good friends of the great white north (where their money is not only better looking than ours, it's got a picture of the Queen on it....).

At this point, some of us are hoping that GM does what they did for the GTO option for the Pontiac Tempest, where they expected a production of 5000, and sold 32,450 that first year and 75,352 in the second year, 1965. While that will make the car less scarce and help to keep the price gouging down, it doesn't mean you'll be rolling down the freeway with 2 Solstices in your rear view mirror either.

Bear in mind too, that unlike the Tempest GTO and Mustang (which are both 4 place vehicles), the Solstice is a 2 seat roadster, so the market demand for that may well weed out some folks who can't live without a back seat...

 

I posted this before but this applies directly to me and you tampa so ill repost it.

Within a large city like tampa there are only 5 dealerships within reasonable driving ability if all 5 get a big allocation of 14-15 your only talking 75 cars running around. I for one will be surprised to see another one on the road besides me in my local area. The numbers just arent there.

 

I think that's one of the reason's I like the Sol is the limited production so 200k of them aren't being built every year.

 

Miataman

You may pass me on the road. I'm not far away. If my golf club(s) will fit in the trunk, I may drive it to Old Stonewall.

 

Since the Sol is meant to be a "Miata killer" I will make a quick comparison to the Miata. At least in my neck of the woods, you will see Miatas here and there, especially on a nice day. However, they are still unique enough that they will catch your eye. If the Sol succeeds in the low cost roadster market, it will split a limited number of buyers between the Sol and the Miata. Thus, making both a little more unique, and making our cars a little more special.

 

The hydroformed sheet metal process that allows the Solsice to be produced at such a low cost can not be used for high volume production...

Kind of a forced way to limit the supply side of this new Hottie in the marketplace..

I think if GM can hold down the dealer gouging....(not that I think they can) they will have years of success with this new sportster.

I hope GM has a plan for performance engine aftermarket kits like superchargers...

I need someone to explain this to me.... If hydroforming allows for inexpensive production..(i.e. low tooling costs...) then shouldn't it not cost too much to build more tooling.. and therefore make more parts and more cars?? No one said GM had to make the parts.. I live in Michigan and we're surrounded by companies that make sub assemblies for the auto guys.

 

I guess that puts me solidly in the Minority. I would rather see a shiny Sosltice on every block! :thumbs:

 

I need someone to explain this to me.... If hydroforming allows for inexpensive production..(i.e. low tooling costs...) then shouldn't it not cost too much to build more tooling.. and therefore make more parts and more cars?? No one said GM had to make the parts.. I live in Michigan and we're surrounded by companies that make sub assemblies for the auto guys.

I'm not an expert but I've also heard it is a slow process plus bunch of stuff needs to be done by hand (mig welding) so I guess there's manpower costs too. There were some good threads on it inlcuding some links to engineering sites if you like to dig further. Here's one I found:
http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461&highlight=hydroforming

 

I need someone to explain this to me.... If hydroforming allows for inexpensive production..(i.e. low tooling costs...) then shouldn't it not cost too much to build more tooling.. and therefore make more parts and more cars?? No one said GM had to make the parts.. I live in Michigan and we're surrounded by companies that make sub assemblies for the auto guys.

Hydroforming takes a big press to exert the pressures involved and it is a slower process resulting in a smoother finished product withoout the stress points of stamping. The hydro in hydroforming refers to water. As I understand it and of course I could be wrong water is froced into a bladder which expands under pressure and bends the metal against a form, similar to a wine press. Pressure is equalized over the full surface.

 

i don't get it, if its slower (and hence more expensive i suppose), wouldn't it make more sense to shape the Solstice tradtitionally?

 

The compound curves involved in the solstice have in recent cars been accomplished with plastic panels as you will find on the front and back lower fascias of most cars. Or it is done with fibreglass as in the vette. Or handformed and hammered aluminum which is even slower. I applaud the use of steel in the sol as opposed to a full plastic front, it will keep its look a lot better.

 

i don't get it, if its slower (and hence more expensive i suppose), wouldn't it make more sense to shape the Solstice tradtitionally?

That would miss the point of the beautiful curves of the car. For a more angular, traditional look check out the Sky, but it too will use hydroforming.

They are also using Hydroforming for some of the structural components such as the center tunnel. It is also said to produce a car with fewer squeaks and rattles...

 

mazda sells 9500 Miata's per year (in recent years) - the solstice production numbers are just fine, the reason they aren't making 50K per year is because there are not enough buyers for them at that level of production.

 

You may pass me on the road. I'm not far away. If my golf club(s) will fit in the trunk, I may drive it to Old Stonewall.

You may see me on the road but you certainly won't pass me :lol:

 

Miata sightings

Since the Sol is meant to be a "Miata killer" I will make a quick comparison to the Miata. At least in my neck of the woods, you will see Miatas here and there, especially on a nice day. However, they are still unique enough that they will catch your eye. If the Sol succeeds in the low cost roadster market, it will split a limited number of buyers between the Sol and the Miata. Thus, making both a little more unique, and making our cars a little more special.

Perhaps it is because I work on a college campus, but I see 2-3 Miatas (Miatae?, Miati?, what is the plural of "Miata"? :lol: ) every day. Granted, it is the same 2-3. Seriously, there are quite a few in my city of 200,000, and that with only one Mazda dealer. Mazda has had a number of years to sell them. If my senior-level chem class all had their way, there would be at least three Solstices running around here next semester!

 

what is the plural of "Miata"? :lol: )

MX-5 squared, cubed, etc. depends on how many there are. :lol:

 

I really don't care how unique it is. I just want a car that I'll enjoy driving.

 

The hydroformed sheet metal process that allows the Solsice to be produced at such a low cost can not be used for high volume production...

Kind of a forced way to limit the supply side of this new Hottie in the marketplace..

I think if GM can hold down the dealer gouging....(not that I think they can) they will have years of success with this new sportster.

I hope GM has a plan for performance engine aftermarket kits like superchargers...

Low cost and cannot be used for high volume makes no sense. Low cost and high volume goes together. If you can produce a produce at low cost you would want to produce the produce at high numbers. Take the Corvette - high cost to produce = low numbers.

 

Low cost is a relative thing. If they had to do solstice at 20,000 cars a year using "traditional" processes, it would be unaffordable. The tooling costs to make those compound curves would eat them alive, and there would be a potentially higher scrap-rate to get the hood and trunk-lid right. Hydroforming allows them to get those beautiful curves right every time, keeping the scrap-rate low and enabling them to keep the cost of the car down. Ie you're not paying the cost of five hoods to get one working hood. Unfortunately, hydroforming, as previously mentioned, is not a high-speed process. You can't run a hundred hoods in an hour like you could with a traditional stamping process. You'd have to set up a lot more tooling. Thus, if your'e not planning on producing a lot of cars, hydroforming makes sense. If you're going to do a hundred-thousand cars, traditional techniques make sense. They actually do use hydroforming on an otherwise "traditional" car. The lift-gate on the Malibu Maxx is hydroformed as they couldn't efficiently reproduct the shape with conventional presses. However, that's a very small part of the car, so in that application it makes sense.

 

i don't get it, if its slower (and hence more expensive i suppose), wouldn't it make more sense to shape the Solstice tradtitionally?

You cannot achieve the same degree of complexity using old-fashioned standard stamping or pressing. H-forming allows a more controlled operation and a programable rate of compression, thus allowing the operator to "hand-form" so to speak the panels, as opposed to stamping, whereas the operator, or both on a very large press, will push the go button, and the die slams down.

As far as the frame, it is completely h-formed, making it the second car in the world, (behind the Corvette,) to have a completely h-formed frame, including the drive tunnel.

If keeping the costs low was the main concern, they would be plastic panel, like a Saturn, I'm not sure I agree w/ using h-forming to lower the cost. I DO feel that being this a low-production unit, it may be used as a test case to make the jump to higher volume vehicles that would benefit from having h-formed panels over the long haul, such as SUV's & trucks, where they always squeak and rattle.

 

Since the Sol is meant to be a "Miata killer" I will make a quick comparison to the Miata. At least in my neck of the woods, you will see Miatas here and there, especially on a nice day. However, they are still unique enough that they will catch your eye. If the Sol succeeds in the low cost roadster market, it will split a limited number of buyers between the Sol and the Miata. Thus, making both a little more unique, and making our cars a little more special.

:agree: The Miata is the most successful roadster in history and it's been sold for a long time. Perhaps in fifteen years we will see as many Solstices on the road as we do Miatas now.

As far as the way the car is made, the traditional way was to stamp a flat piece and bend it some, send that to a new die and bend it some more, repeat as many as four more times. A lot of dies and presses. Very expensive. This way is how, relatively, smaller manufactures make kitchen sinks. Slowly, evenly bend the metal over one die. Think of it as a Zen way to form metal. Creates a peaceful panel......Ohmmmmmmm